The treatment of AP's

[Cardcounter]

In the movie "21" after survelinace had discovered that there was counting going on they backroomed Ben Cambell and beat the stuffing out of him. My question is how do the casinos have the athority to do that. Are the casinos paying of the cops and the district attorney to be not prosecuted for that. There where severeral crimes taking place there. In the book beat the players it tells how casinos mistreat and cheat AP's if you play blackjack for high stakes and you are an advantage player you should read beat the player.
It tells the ramofications that the casino can face for backrooming a card counter with lawsuits of $100,000 and up. It even tells of an elderly lady who found 5 cents in the slot machine and got backed room because if they lady ended up suing the casino and won $600,000 over her treatment over finding 5 cents.

 

[ihate17]

It is a partnership

In a place like Nevada, a place where casinos pay most of the bills and are directly or indirectly responsible for most of the jobs, the casinos run the show and the gaming people and police are their partners.

The pysical stuff today happens less often but can still happen but what has been slowly happening is that the courts and the jury have become more independent and much much more honest than gaming or the police.

Casino security is not police, is not trained to be police and often is populated by the types of people who get a power rush from the uniform and do not have the makeup to be police officers. So they act like goons sometimes and will make false statements to the police or gaming officials, who they happen to work with daily. The police/gaming will tend to buy anything the casinos sell and will arrest on their say so, and false arrest has not been uncommon enough. The combination of untrained, zealous security and partnership law enforcement believing all their BS creates the situations that are written about in "Beat the Players."

ihate17

 

[Mr. T]

What I never understand about American casinos is why they dont get rid of these AP menace by having all CSM like in all other countries.
For high rollers OK it has always been " anything you want " attitude.

 

[aslan]

What I never understand about American casinos is why they dont get rid of these AP menace by having all CSM like in all other countries.
For high rollers OK it has always been " anything you want " attitude.

I was playing double deck BJ at the Hilton in Vegas in February. When they would not let me double down after splitting I requested a chat with the pit boss since there was no sign about this rule. In the course of our discussion, he explained that the casino had completely gotten rid of double deck for a while, but because many gamblers stopped playing at the Hilton they had to bring it back, although they changed the rules a little to make it less attractive to counters. He said, the truth is, the Hilton doesn't want to offer a fair gamble, but they still have to be responsive to players to some extent. From this I gather that CSMs would be everywhere were it not for the competitiveness between casinos. If I were the Capone of the gaming industry, I think I'd call for a summit of all the gambling houses. I would then mandate the exclusive use of CSMs in all casinos at once. End of problem. Back to the good old days before anyone knew how to beat blackjack.

 

[shadroch]

Problem with that is that casinos are public corps. that need to make each quarters results better than the last one. Doing that would result in a huge drop in the casinos revenue and stockholders would be out for blood.The patient(the casino) might survive the operation but the doctor wouldn't.

 

[ihate17]

The AP menace is first of all a casino myth

What I never understand about American casinos is why they dont get rid of these AP menace by having all CSM like in all other countries.
For high rollers OK it has always been " anything you want " attitude.

The amount of AP's and the amount of money they might win is nothing!

The trouble with CSMs is the fact that it was proven over 10 years ago and proven over and over again, that the amount of money the casino will make will go drastically down by using only CSM's at anywhere but the lowest of low level tables. There are just not enough people who will play green chips on CSM's and if any other casino in the area has real blackjack, the CSM tables easily can starve for customers.
Casino people and especially the real advantage player (shufflemaster) have tried over and over again, but today there are fewer CSM's in places like Vegas and absolutely none in high limit rooms.

ihate17

 

[ChefJJ]

I've heard quite a bit of folks say that they do not trust playing at a CSM table (some don't even trust auto shufflers), and that has nothing to do with any advantage play.

 

[aslan]

I've heard quite a bit of folks say that they do not trust playing at a CSM table (some don't even trust auto shufflers), and that has nothing to do with any advantage play.

And that is not all superstition. There are shuffle machines for cheaters that have the ability to "memorize" the position of every card in the shuffled decks and then whisper each next card into the ear of the dealer. These cheating devices are used in conjunction with phony "holdout" shoes that allow dealers to deal seconds (withhold helpful cards from players and steer helpful cards to the dealer). Reputable houses, of course, don't use these devices, but such devices are advertised on the internet, and so they do have some public exposure. Also, the public watches the movies in which casinos use devices which in reality don't even exist. The public believes that anything is possible with science and technology, and they aren't that far from the truth.

 

[aslan]

Problem with that is that casinos are public corps. that need to make each quarters results better than the last one. Doing that would result in a huge drop in the casinos revenue and stockholders would be out for blood.The patient(the casino) might survive the operation but the doctor wouldn't.

What you say is encouraging. But would there be such a hugh drop if all the casinos moved to CSMs in unison. There would be no where else for gamblers to go. Certain gamblers might not play BJ any longer, but gamblers would continue to gamble at other games, except for the small number of BJ advantage players.

 

[la_dee_daa]

What you say is encouraging. But would there be such a hugh drop if all the casinos moved to CSMs in unison. There would be no where else for gamblers to go. Certain gamblers might not play BJ any longer, but gamblers would continue to gamble at other games, except for the small number of BJ advantage players.

Don't give them any ideas!

as long as they remain as seperate entities this probably won't be the case. It would be very difficult to work out a agreement like this and even if they did all agree to do this one casino could just bring back shoes for the gamblers that won't play csms and just a nice spike in their profits. Seems like it this type of cartel would be hard to keep going, like most..

:cow:

 

[aslan]

The amount of AP's and the amount of money they might win is nothing!

The trouble with CSMs is the fact that it was proven over 10 years ago and proven over and over again, that the amount of money the casino will make will go drastically down by using only CSM's at anywhere but the lowest of low level tables. There are just not enough people who will play green chips on CSM's and if any other casino in the area has real blackjack, the CSM tables easily can starve for customers.
Casino people and especially the real advantage player (shufflemaster) have tried over and over again, but today there are fewer CSM's in places like Vegas and absolutely none in high limit rooms.

ihate17

Again, isn't that result due to the fact that gamblers would move to other casinos. If all the casinos moved to CSMs in unison, wouldn't the result be different. Gamblers have to have somewhere to gamble, so wouldn't they just switch to other games, that is, other than the small number of BJ APs.

Whether the casinos could implement this in high limit rooms, I don't know. I can't imagine that a large percentage of their high limit players are counters, so if all the casinos changed at once, why would there be a large exodus. gamblers have to gamble, and I believe that if the only games were CSMs, the gamblers would play, other than the APs of course. Isn't this the experience in other countries.

Someone might make a ton of money organizing the casinos to conventionalize their rules and strategies. The casinos could still compete, but on other bases, such as, entertainment, ambience, friendliness, luxury, etc.

 

[aslan]

Don't give them any ideas!

as long as they remain as seperate entities this probably won't be the case. It would be very difficult to work out a agreement like this and even if they did all agree to do this one casino could just bring back shoes for the gamblers that won't play csms and just a nice spike in their profits. Seems like it this type of cartel would be hard to keep going, like most..

:cow:

No doubt. It would take a Capone to knock all the casinos heads together and get them to act as a cartel. Currently, it appears there is true competition in the gaming industry. Could that change? If there's money in it, anything is possible.

 

[ihate17]

So far they all want the edge

Again, isn't that result due to the fact that gamblers would move to other casinos. If all the casinos moved to CSMs in unison, wouldn't the result be different. Gamblers have to have somewhere to gamble, so wouldn't they just switch to other games, that is, other than the small number of BJ APs.

Whether the casinos could implement this in high limit rooms, I don't know. I can't imagine that a large percentage of their high limit players are counters, so if all the casinos changed at once, why would there be a large exodus. gamblers have to gamble, and I believe that if the only games were CSMs, the gamblers would play, other than the APs of course. Isn't this the experience in other countries.

Someone might make a ton of money organizing the casinos to conventionalize their rules and strategies. The casinos could still compete, but on other bases, such as, entertainment, ambience, friendliness, luxury, etc.

So far we have competition. When Hilton introduced Mindplay to Vegas, I received phone calls from hosts at Venetian and Belaggio who told me that Mindplay was bad for players and to come to their hotel where they did not have it. This was not a case of my Hilton host moving on either, but a case of people who got my name, number and knew I had a host at Hilton.

As long as casinos wish to get the edge on each other things like CSM's will not work. Remember they also do extremely little in the way of sharing AP info with each other in Vegas. When they back you off, I think they actually want you to go next door and take the other corporation's money. They of course do share within the company.

ihate17

 

[Automatic Monkey]

So far we have competition. When Hilton introduced Mindplay to Vegas, I received phone calls from hosts at Venetian and Belaggio who told me that Mindplay was bad for players and to come to their hotel where they did not have it. This was not a case of my Hilton host moving on either, but a case of people who got my name, number and knew I had a host at Hilton.

As long as casinos wish to get the edge on each other things like CSM's will not work. Remember they also do extremely little in the way of sharing AP info with each other in Vegas. When they back you off, I think they actually want you to go next door and take the other corporation's money. They of course do share within the company.

ihate17

Reminds me of back when 6:5 was trying to work it's way into Reno. Circle Jerkus started running billboard ads proudly proclaiming their BJ was all still 3:2. 6:5 got run out of town! Reno is too dependent on locals and they're not going to play 6:5.

 

[Cardcounter]

The games casinos offer!

The games that casinos offer have to be competive games or people will just go to other casinos. What good is money lost in a casino if it is not lost in your casino. A lot of gamblers that are not counters think that CSM rig the game in favor of the house, they do the house always has the advantage with CSM. This is a good myth to keep alive if you are an AP. The more that ploppies demand to play games with good rules the better the AP's have it. If ploppies start giving into 6 to 5 and CSM we are doomed.
If a high rolling loser wants to play a DD game with DOA and DAS and the casino wants to keep his business the casino should offer the game to him other wise another casino might accomadate him.

 

[bj bob]

The games that casinos offer have to be competive games or people will just go to other casinos. If a high rolling loser wants to play a DD game with DOA and DAS and the casino wants to keep his business the casino should offer the game to him other wise another casino might accomadate him.

Great idea! A DD game with DOA and DAS (with 80% pen. to boot) just like your buddies across the street at the Biltmore offered last year. Put that game at your club and you can be expecting to be dealing to more than a handful of your favorite forum buddies. Just tell your bosses it a class reunion promo.:grin: :grin:

 

[ihate17]

The power of the ploppy

The games that casinos offer have to be competive games or people will just go to other casinos. What good is money lost in a casino if it is not lost in your casino. A lot of gamblers that are not counters think that CSM rig the game in favor of the house, they do the house always has the advantage with CSM. This is a good myth to keep alive if you are an AP. The more that ploppies demand to play games with good rules the better the AP's have it. If ploppies start giving into 6 to 5 and CSM we are doomed.
If a high rolling loser wants to play a DD game with DOA and DAS and the casino wants to keep his business the casino should offer the game to him other wise another casino might accomadate him.

This is true. When the average poor player will not play the casino will notice.

ihate17

 

[Doofus]

What you say is encouraging. But would there be such a hugh drop if all the casinos moved to CSMs in unison. There would be no where else for gamblers to go. Certain gamblers might not play BJ any longer, but gamblers would continue to gamble at other games, except for the small number of BJ advantage players.

In addition to the negative player reaction, this would violate US antitrust law.

 

[aslan]

In addition to the negative player reaction, this would violate US antitrust law.

It would make an interesting case in anti-trust law to say the least.

 

[bj bob]

Reminds me of back when 6:5 was trying to work it's way into Reno. Circle Jerkus started running billboard ads proudly proclaiming their BJ was all still 3:2. 6:5 got run out of town! Reno is too dependent on locals and they're not going to play 6:5.

That's very true. Too bad the Circus forgot to add the fact that their pen on the SD's was 40% on half of their tables. I guess they weren't to proud of that point.