Three card poker for cover?

schismist

Well-Known Member
In my area, I play in casinos with only one pit, so wonging is a little difficult. I'm wonging out fine, but I haven't back-counted and wonged in yet. So, I was thinking, could going over and watching a three card poker game with the same attention that I give the beginning of a blackjack shoe be used well for cover? If I'm spreading $10-$100 at 6 deck blackjack (with moderate wonging), could I actually place a few $5 bets at three card poker and not eat into my blackjack edge? (I think three card poker has a house edge of like 3%...right?) I imagine that playing three card poker would immediately remove me from the pit boss' card counter schema. Or might someone notice that I'm not betting $100 at three card poker, like I am at blackjack?

What do you think?
 

KenSmith

Administrator
Staff member
If possible, pick another house game. Three card poker players, particularly those who stand behind the table for a while, are targets of suspicion for other reasons.
 

SPX

Well-Known Member
KenSmith said:
If possible, pick another house game. Three card poker players, particularly those who stand behind the table for a while, are targets of suspicion for other reasons.
Why is this? For the same reason Asia Fever gave?
 

halcyon1234

Well-Known Member
Why not try ghosting a Casino War table? Especially if they ask what you're doing, you can try dropping some ploppy nonesense like "I'm waiting for the deck to streak so I can place a sure-thing."

You can also try "backcounting" a CSM machine. They're obviously not worried about someone counting there. If you can find a CSM and non-CSM side-by-side, you're good. You can still use the "I'm just watching, maybe I'll try" excuse. In fact, you might want to:

1) Backcount the non-CSM table.
2) Near the end of the non-CSM shoe that's -RC, sit down at the CSM table! Buy in, with cash, making a big deal out of the chip count, what colours you want, etc etc. Stall as much as you like.
3) Play 2, maybe 3 hands-- timed just perfectly so that the non-CSM table's shuffle has finished.
4) If you lose, complain about the table being unlucky, stand up and "watch" some more. If you win, go "I'll keep my winnings thank you" and stand up to watch everyone else lose.
5) Then, when the non-CSM's count rises, you can move to that table either because it's "luckier than the losing one" or "I'm going to use my luck with some REAL money" (since, presumably, the non-CSM will have a higher limit)

If you need more cover, throw down the smallest bet possible at the CSM table when the pit is watching. Or back a CSM BS player. You can also kinda AP by offering to buy a CSM's player hand (or pay for their double, or anything else advantageous) while the non-CSM is in a unrecoverable negative. That way, it will seem that you're waaay more interested in a CSM table than a non-CSM. You couldn't possibly be a counter, you CSM-playing ploppy superstitious nut. =) (And I can assure you, there will be plenty of times the CSM players will be giving up advantage that you can buy. That's why they're CSM ploppies)

Best of all who cares if you end up completely pissing off the CSM table? None of them will ever be playing with you on the non-CSM, when you're in "serious" mode. =)
 

schismist

Well-Known Member
Okay, the game isn't important.

Will any of these work?

Texas Shootout
Spanish 21
Four Card Poker
Pai Gow Poker

No CSM games here...
 

halcyon1234

Well-Known Member
No CSM games here
Heaven incarnate.

...Pai Gow...
This one. Pai Gow moves incredibly slow. Each hand, every is dealt 7 cards, each player has to arrange their cards, and then the dealer has to arrange his cards, and then every player has to reveal their cards, and then every player has to compare their hand to the dealer, and then everyone gets paid and then comission gets paid. It takes forever to play a hand (in relation to BJ, especially).

Plus, it has a fairly low house edge. If you needed to sit down and play a hand for cover, you can easily wait out the remainder of a blackjack shoe. Take a quick gander at the Wizard of Odds' Pai Gow section for the (very easy to learn) optimal strategy.
 

schismist

Well-Known Member
I used the Pai Gao suggestion, thanks.

I stood around watching the Pai Gao game, then played a few hands while waiting for a player's card application, then noticed the 6D blackjack table was full, then went over and backcounted, and then won $550+ spreading $10-100.

Then I got distracted and lost the count, went back and played some more Pai Gao. I was planning to raise my bet from the table min if one of the pit guys that was watching me earlier came over, but they came nowhere near the table.

So, do you think it worked? Can I go back to this place again anytime soon, or should I wait a while?
 

halcyon1234

Well-Known Member
It seems highly unlikely that they're going to be caring much about a $10-$100 spread, so combined with that you were seen playing other games-- it should be fine.
 

schismist

Well-Known Member
I dunno...

halcyon1234 said:
It seems highly unlikely that they're going to be caring much about a $10-$100 spread, so combined with that you were seen playing other games-- it should be fine.
This is a real "local" place. E.g. to put it in context that 10-100 spread was at a 5 min 200 max table. I feel like they were watching me closely, but I have no idea...

I know I shouldn't be too worried about it. I even put out a $50 bet after a shuffle, and tipped $5. But if I lose this place I'll be stuck without the 80% pen and LS it offers, and will have to travel to an indian casino.
 

zengrifter

Banned
schismist said:
I know I shouldn't be too worried about it. I even put out a $50 bet after a shuffle, and tipped $5. But if I lose this place I'll be stuck without the 80% pen and LS it offers, and will have to travel to an indian casino.
If it were me and I won my last max bet of the shuffle I would place my max bet again after the shuffle AND continue to bet my max UNTIL I lost a hand. This ruse costs you very little in terms of EV, especially if you are wonging out of bad counts. zg
 

halcyon1234

Well-Known Member
zengrifter said:
If it were me and I won my last max bet of the shuffle I would place my max bet again after the shuffle AND continue to bet my max UNTIL I lost a hand. This ruse costs you very little in terms of EV, especially if you are wonging out of bad counts. zg
Yup:

EV of a $10 unit is $10/hour (1 unit per hour is the usual)

EV of max bet after a shuffle = $50 * -0.005 = -$0.25

schismist said:
I know I shouldn't be too worried about it. I even put out a $50 bet after a shuffle, and tipped $5.
Looks like the tip is costing you way more EV that the $50 bet. (But that's a whole other barrel of monkeyfish) =)

I feel like they were watching me closely, but I have no idea...
Just because you're paranoid don't mean they're not after you. Unless you're just paranoid.

How does the pit act around you? Do they talk to you? Are they friendly? Are they always around when you're placing a bet? Do they shuffle up on you? Has more than one ever watched you at once? Do you have a players card? Do you use it?

What about you? Do you move your lips when you count? Do you stare at the cards and only the cards? Can you converse with dealer, players, pit while counting? Do you slowly ramp your bets or just right into it?

Do you play too often? This could be a huge thing to watch. If you're in almost every day, playing for hours upon hours on end-- it's an odd thing. Can you afford to play twice as much, but half as often-- that is, play 2 hours 1 day a week, rather than 1 hour twice a week? That way you're in less often. (A regular person is more likely to come less often and spend more time, than hit'n'running every day). Or can you stay twice as long but play half as much? In other words-- go for 4 hours, but only play 2 of them (rather than go for 2 hours and play 2). That way you can spread it out more-- make sure you're not playing in the same pit with the same critter too much.

If you can time it to skip a shift entierly, even better. (It's been mentioned here before that a suspicious critter will think like this: "This guy's odd. I'm about to go off shift. I'll tell PC2 to look at him." PC2 never sees you play, never encounters you, so he never mentions it at the end of his shift to PC3. You sit down when PC3 comes on shifttt, and there's no heat).

If you're worried that your betting patterns are tipping you off, try using a different betting patterns each time. Bet normally once. Use the Grifter's Gambit another time. Very how much you play on each TC (though make sure it still adds up to the same amount, just at a different pace).
 

schismist

Well-Known Member
halcyon1234 said:
How does the pit act around you? Do they talk to you? Are they friendly? Are they always around when you're placing a bet? Do they shuffle up on you? Has more than one ever watched you at once? Do you have a players card? Do you use it?
Yes, they are talking to me and are friendly. He asked for my card. I told him I already gave it at Pai Gow... So using a card is good, then? I didn't know... The only watched in rounds. One instance, he came sorta with his back to the table, like to the side, and then turned and watched in this strange pose, but whatevs

What about you? Do you move your lips when you count? Do you stare at the cards and only the cards? Can you converse with dealer, players, pit while counting? Do you slowly ramp your bets or just right into it?
Probably my only sin here is not talking enough. I'm just not very social to begin with. I usually just smile to the other players and laugh and say some crap like "she knows how to bust!"

This time I ramped $10-25-50-75-100, and never more than doubled or halved the bet. I figure when I'm putting in the green this just looks like a 1-4 spread. Seems more natural than trying to put in $60 or whatever.

Do you play too often?
Nah, I go around once a week.

Mostly, I'm trying to implement a strategy of "Gain the reputation of being an early riser, and you can sleep until noon," if you know what I mean. I figure the first impression I make on a pit crew will be the most important. That's why I signed up for the card at the Pai Gao table and made sure to talk to the pit lots while I was there. I figure one tip when cashing out my first time is a loan against potential future suspicion.

If they ever start to suspect you, it's just a slow downhill from there, no?
 
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halcyon1234

Well-Known Member
schismist said:
Yes, they are talking to me and are friendly. He asked for my card. I told him I already gave it at Pai Gow... So using a card is good, then? I didn't know... The only watched in rounds. One instance, he came sorta with his back to the table, like to the side, and then turned and watched in this strange pose, but whatevs
In general, it's not good to play with a player card, since they can track your play. But if you're regular, it's hard not to. There's several ways around it:

1) Play it only at non-BJ (playing it at Pai Gow was good)
2) "forget" it at home. (Only works so often)
3) Play with it for a bit. Then request some outrageous comp. (Go to the gift shop and look at the leather jacket, that's a good example). Ask for it on a couple visits. Both times they'll tell you you don't have enough points, and might even be honest enough to tell you you'll NEVER have enough points unless you play slots. Act dejected, and in the future, when somone asks for your card, say "what's the point, I don't play slots".
4) Learn to properly rathole your chips to minimize your "wins". (Search the forum for advice on that)

It doesn't sound like the PC is doing anything out of the ordinary. He's doing his rounds. They get bored. They act like jackasses. Don't worry about it. As long as they're not just standing around, on the phone, staring and pointing at you.

Probably my only sin here is not talking enough. I'm just not very social to begin with. I usually just smile to the other players and laugh and say some crap like "she knows how to bust!"
Learn to yak in between hands. Cheer on other players. Beg for good hits when you double down. Get the dealer to tell you how long she's been working there. Try to sit one seat away from 3rd or 1st base, so you aren't right on the pit's rail, so they can't talk to you as easily.

Don't watch the pit too closely. Players don't do that unless they want a comp. (You can combine watching the pit with comp begging as described above, though. That way you can scope them out, while laying down your cover)

This time I ramped $10-25-50-75-100, and never more than doubled or halved the bet. I figure when I'm putting in the green this just looks like a 1-4 spread. Seems more natural than trying to put in $60 or whatever.
You can play with 5 red rather than 1 green.


Nah, I go around once a week.
Others may say different, but that sounds pretty regular to me. {shrug}

If they ever start to suspect you, it's just a slow downhill from there, no?
Not really. If they start to suspect you and you do nothing, then it is. But if you're spreading your play around, not being in a pit's view for too long, and taking sufficient breaks, you'll be fine. If you suspect they suspect you (watching you too much), pick up your chips, leave, and dont' come back for a month. They won't remember you.
 

schismist

Well-Known Member
I like the rat-holing idea. I'll try that next time. Do I have to wait until I come back to cash the rat-holed chips, or can I take them to the cashier along with my "loss"? I'm not keen on how they keep track of your losses at the pit.

Thanks again.
 

EasyRhino

Well-Known Member
It really depends on the cashier and the pit.

You could try cashing in with whatever the pit saw you leaving with, plus a small margin.

One generally useful tactic is to break your cashout into penny packets. For instance, if you're going to bet taking a lengthy break, eating a meal or something, cash in some chips before, and some after.

One local place keeps very close track of black chips, so the cashier confirms with pit any time they see any. Therefore, any shenanigans with black chips are out, but greens and reds are fair game.

Worst case scenario (extremely small joint, keeping close tabs), you may need to get an accomplice to cash the chips.
 
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