Trying to improve

[jack.jackson]

when splitting tens at the appropriate index[+8] [in my case] vs dealers 6. Can anyone definitively tell me that if, keeping a side count of aces you can use this to determine wether a surplus or shortage of ace's will help or hurt this particular hand or will the aces simply offset each other,meaning neither helpful or hurtfull which is how i play these situations. I utilize the side count of aces in particular situations to greatlly improve on my play of hands, not to mention my betting. Also would S17 play a role in the aspect of this hand.

 

[Sonny]

Yes. You can use a multiparameter index adjustment for certain plays. Since you're side counting the aces, you might want to look at the adjustments for hard doubling (especially 10 and 11) and splitting tens. If you use the Hi-Opt systems then you can find the ace multiparameter charts in Humble's book. For any other system you might need to calculate your own. I believe Pete Moss' spreadsheet can do this for you:

http://www.bjmath.com/bjmath/tcindex/tcindex.htm (Archive copy)

-Sonny-

 

[jack.jackson]

Yes. You can use a multiparameter index adjustment for certain plays. Since you're side counting the aces, you might want to look at the adjustments for hard doubling (especially 10 and 11) and splitting tens. If you use the Hi-Opt systems then you can find the ace multiparameter charts in Humble's book. For any other system you might need to calculate your own. I believe Pete Moss' spreadsheet can do this for you:

http://www.bjmath.com/bjmath/tcindex/tcindex.htm (Archive copy)

-Sonny-

Thank you. Before i move on in trying to calculate and utilize the side count of aces to my advantage i would just like to say theres nothing more exiciting and rewarding than playing the advanced omega 2,your talking terms of raw power here, even more powerful than the revere apc and that was a ball busting level 4, this ones and inferior level 2. A must have for serious card counters. Not to stroke the ego but i can flat rock
the doors off a 2d, face up,head to head,1-10unit spread,65-75%pen,rotating the rules in play from-.41 all the way up to comfortable-.19 naturally i'll usually add more ghost when playing with better rules in play,when practicing, or even cut back to a 1-4 unit spread,but add better pen, or a combo of any of the above, to try and better prepare myself for my first casino adventure and believe me.I am prepared. This is why ive come to this site to learn latest lowdowns in the casinos,how much heat are people really getting? what curve balls i need to look out for? Where are the best places to play? How do i keep my identity and anononimity a secret without showing proper I.D. Can i take full advantage of comps without blowing my cover. I know some things merely defy description but some insight is better than none at all.

 

[Sonny]

i would just like to say theres nothing more exiciting and rewarding than playing the advanced omega 2,your talking terms of raw power here

Yeah, the AOII is one of the best systems for pitch games. I used to use Hi-Opt II, which is about the same, but now that I play more shoe games I switched to Zen. The ace side count also gots in the way when I moved on to shuffle tracking.

This is why ive come to this site to learn latest lowdowns in the casinos

You've come to the right place. You can find just about anything you need to know with a quick search of this site.

Welcome, and good luck.

-Sonny-

 

[jack.jackson]

Yes. You can use a multiparameter index adjustment for certain plays. Since you're side counting the aces, you might want to look at the adjustments for hard doubling (especially 10 and 11) and splitting tens. If you use the Hi-Opt systems then you can find the ace multiparameter charts in Humble's book. For any other system you might need to calculate your own. I believe Pete Moss' spreadsheet can do this for you:

http://www.bjmath.com/bjmath/tcindex/tcindex.htm (Archive copy)

-Sonny-

What in the holy buda of jesus was that! That thing made me dizzy just looking at it. I know through trial and error the most part to gain from keeping an ace side count. For example, i know that if you were to take four 2's out of a single deck the ratio of facecards vs non facecards is 8 to 4 simplified, 2 to 1 and since we insure half our bet we would therefore insure at a count of 0 since[in my case] i take insurance at +6, i therefore know a surplus of 4 aces has an equevelent of positive +6 1.5x4=+6 or vice versa. So yes, there have been occasions where i've insured at a rc of 0. My most memorable experience one time was with a little over a deckandhalf to be played i mad a max bet 20 on one, hand BJ on the other. Dealer had ace up, the rc was, you guessed it o/8 all 8 ace's exhausted out of the two deck game with just a little more than 1/2 deckplayed when there should of been two for an average distribution. There was a surplus of six extra ace's. So doing the math, 6x1.5=9, divided by 2/3 =+6. Took even on the bj, then insured the 20 and guess what, dealer had blackjack. Saved a whole buck or should i say made.
I know this is more of an extreme example but with help of the aces the insurance bet is a money maker for me and has been for a loooong time.
note: Im dividing by 2/3's here not by 3/4 as you might suppose.

The shizophrenic ace carries a different weight of magnitude for different hands. For example +4 in 16vs7,but only+2 in 16vs8,or9 and only+1 in 16 vs 10. +1 for stiffs vs dealears bust card, +2 for soft doubles and all 11's and 10vsdealears10,[only if you lose your original bet] but offset each other in any other ten, since an ace would give us 21 it also helps any dealer card. So you have to be careful when using this advanced technique. knowing when to subtract and when to add, and the magnification the ace has on that paticular hand is key to manipulating it to your advantage.
In addition to this, if you can compensate for the discrepancy of your advantage by how many decks or half decks are left to be played it is possible to make some fairly bizzare plays such as sometimes hitting a stiff on dealears bust card,[excluding 12vs2,3] or even doubling 10vs10 on a negative count, yes, i said it a negative count, even though i have playing index of positive +9 on this hand[tc] Thought i have no proof of this in my heart i feel they are approximately right. And im sorry if ive offended anybody,but i was merely trying to provide some insight into the worldclass players of the fascinating game of twenty one like you have provided for me.

 

[Sonny]

What in the holy buda of jesus was that! That thing made me dizzy just looking at it.

That was a spreadsheet that calculates the playing indices for any counting system. By adding a secondary count you can find the multiparameter adjustments for whatever card you are side counting.

i know that if you were to take four 2's out of a single deck the ratio of facecards vs non facecards is 8 to 4 simplified, 2 to 1 and since we insure half our bet we would therefore insure at a count of 0

But if you remove four 2s from the deck then the count is no longer zero! At that point insurance would be a break-even bet. You would not have an advantage yet.

i therefore know a surplus of 4 aces has an equevelent of positive +6 1.5x4=+6 or vice versa. So yes, there have been occasions where i've insured at a rc of 0.

There is an easier way to use the ace side count for insurance bets:

http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/content/victorinsuranceoriginal.htm

Dealer had ace up, the rc was, you guessed it o/8 all 8 ace's exhausted out of the two deck game with just a little more than 1/2 deckplayed when there should of been two for an average distribution. There was a surplus of six extra ace's. So doing the math, 6x1.5=9, divided by 2/3 =+6. Took even on the bj, then insured the 20 and guess what, dealer had blackjack. Saved a whole buck or should i say made.

So were all of the aces exhausted or was there a surplus of 6? There can’t be both. With all aces out there would be a deficiency of 6 aces. If you insured at a RC of 0 with 6 extra aces then you made a big mistake.

knowing when to subtract and when to add, and the magnification the ace has on that paticular hand is key to manipulating it to your advantage.

That is why it is important to know the ace adjustment factor for plays like this. The ace is worth different amounts for different plays. If you are using the wrong adjustment factor then your decisions will be wrong.

In addition to this, if you can compensate for the discrepancy of your advantage by how many decks or half decks are left to be played it is possible to make some fairly bizzare plays such as sometimes hitting a stiff on dealears bust card,[excluding 12vs2,3] or even doubling 10vs10 on a negative count, yes, i said it a negative count, even though i have playing index of positive +9 on this hand[tc]

First of all, you would have to estimate the number of quarter-decks in order to make the side count work. Using decks or half-decks will not be very accurate.

Secondly, there would have to be a lot of aces left to justify doubling 10 vs. 10 in a negative count. This is where knowing the proper adjustment factor becomes crucial. Playing this by gut feeling can be costly.

Thought i have no proof of this in my heart i feel they are approximately right.

The correct adjustment factors are on the spreadsheet. It would be a good idea to double-check your numbers with the correct numbers just to make sure. Blackjack is not a game that can won by playing hunches, no matter how scientific they seem to be.

-Sonny-

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Thank you. Before i move on in trying to calculate and utilize the side count of aces to my advantage i would just like to say theres nothing more exiciting and rewarding than playing the advanced omega 2,your talking terms of raw power here, even more powerful than the revere apc and that was a ball busting level 4, this ones and inferior level 2. A must have for serious card counters...

Whoa wait a minute, sure AOII is a great count, but it will be many years of play before you have a significant chance of having better results than a High-Low player. When I switched to HO2 from High-Low I had a bunch of good sessions in a row. It must have been the count, right? No. It was good luck.

Not to discourage you at all, because I like to see people using the more challenging and powerful systems, but you don't want to start thinking you are Superman and can fly into a hail of speeding bad variance because of your strong game.

 

[zengrifter]

Thank you. Before i move on in trying to calculate and utilize the side count of aces to my advantage i would just like to say theres nothing more exiciting and rewarding than playing the advanced omega 2,your talking terms of raw power here, even more powerful than the revere apc and that was a ball busting level 4, this ones and inferior level 2.

In actuality, if you are side-counting Aces the way Revere and Carlson recommend (1/4D estimation), then you are NOT getting the full effective yeild that AO2 affords. Ace side-counting can ONLY be done effectively IF you use a side Ace point-count, like this one: A/-2 vs 3&5/+1. So you would need to keep two simultaneous point-counts, without which your yield is AT BEST comparable to ZEN with no Ace side-count.

Further, Bryce's TC-adjustment AND betting strategy are both seriously flawed. So the end result is that you wind up working harder for a gain that can be accomplished easier.

So I could recommend a better way. zg

 

[jack.jackson]

That was a spreadsheet that calculates the playing indices for any counting system. By adding a secondary count you can find the multiparameter adjustments for whatever card you are side counting.

I'm sure i'll figure out when i get around to firguring it out
Thanks again!



But if you remove four 2s from the deck then the count is no longer zero! At that point insurance would be a break-even bet. You would not have an advantage yet.

I was just using the two's for an example[it could be any non-facecard for that matter] as long as facecards vs non-face was 2:1 ratio. For example if you were playing in a 2deck game with one deck remaining and all 8 aces were depleted with a rc of 0 you would have 32 non-face vs 16 face,again a ratio of 2:1 {of course this will vary due to card values, the theory and probability remain the same] 4x1.5 with a rc of 0= +6,or say your playing in a six deck game with three decks in the discard tray and all 24 ace's have been depleted[12 EXTRA] again we get, 12x1.5=18, divided by3 with a rc of 0 = +6[for the purpose of insur,only]


There is an easier way to use the ace side count for insurance bets:

http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/content/victorinsuranceoriginal.htm Thanks,but after years of practice it's not to difficult any more. However they were giving away my first base secrets. But didnt mention why should be slighty more conservative when playing head to head against the dealer when doubling or betting. IM not talking about RoR either. Nevertheless,"great insight" IT's a little over my head but im gonna read the rest anyway.



So were all of the aces exhausted or was there a surplus of 6? There can’t be both. With all aces out there would be a deficiency of 6 aces. If you insured at a RC of 0 with 6 extra aces then you made a big mistake.

What i meant by exhausted, was surplus, meaning all 8 aces were depleted after JUST 1/2 deck into the 2d game. When there should of been only two.


That is why it is important to know the ace adjustment factor for plays like this. The ace is worth different amounts for different plays. If you are using the wrong adjustment factor then your decisions will be wrong.

YEAH. i know, but also know, at this point, it's still helping me more than it's hurting me. I think


First of all, you would have to estimate the number of quarter-decks in order to make the side count work. Using decks or half-decks will not be very accurate.
I was trying to make a long story short here. I do you use 1/4 estimation even in multiple decks, 1/4 deck for each ace.Also I find it easier to double by how many decks are left, in multiple decks only] Then times it by two. Example,Instead of dividing -39 by 3n1/2, I divide it by 7= -5n4/7, X2 = tc of -11.

Secondly, there would have to be a lot of aces left to justify doubling 10 vs. 10 in a negative count. This is where knowing the proper adjustment factor becomes crucial. Playing this by gut feeling can be costly.

This partialy has to due with the fact that when the number of decks decrease.Our chances of catching a facecard increase.For example this is why i double 10vs10 at tc +9 with four decks remaining. and tc+7 with 2d remaining and only tc of +5 with one deck remaining, and tc+3 with 1/2 deck remaining. Not to mention the ace's up my sleeve. I do most of my hands this way depends which ones they are. Even stiffs are contingent upon the count. This is why Zengrifter thinks the A011 has flaws.


The correct adjustment factors are on the spreadsheet. It would be a good idea to double-check your numbers with the correct numbers just to make sure. Blackjack is not a game that can won by playing hunches, no matter how scientific they seem to be.

-Sonny-

I know that's sound advice and ill be sure to heed it. Why do you think i havent played for real money[because im still in training mode],haha,and my 2 d.u.i.

I'll get back with you other guys. I've read most of your stuff and know your the real deal and our the next level. Am, keep up the commical amusement
its been really entertaining. You to sunny,thanks.
Oh yeah, just got a sub, to cbjn,since i live 5 Hrs north of tunica i can already hear bell ringing.Time for a nap.

 

[jack.jackson]

Whoa wait a minute, sure AOII is a great count, but it will be many years of play before you have a significant chance of having better results than a High-Low player. When I switched to HO2 from High-Low I had a bunch of good sessions in a row. It must have been the count, right? No. It was good luck.

Not to discourage you at all, because I like to see people using the more challenging and powerful systems, but you don't want to start thinking you are Superman and can fly into a hail of speeding bad variance because of your strong game.

Hey,am,is that a real gun hes holding? Looks pretty dangerous to me:laugh:

If your refering to having the talent, then the comment is inept! How can say that when conditions and skill are what matters for the most part when showing positive results. Im not saying your wrong, but im noy saying your right either. Also are you defining Hi-lo player as wonging, or the system or both?

Because i know its not as powerful as the ao11, and the Hi-opt2 is about the same. I know about negative fluxes i once rode one out for over 120hrs and hit the 20 to 30 hr ones all the time since i still practice about 3or4 hours and have been for over 5 years its become second nature to me.

 

[jack.jackson]

In actuality, if you are side-counting Aces the way Revere and Carlson recommend (1/4D estimation), then you are NOT getting the full effective yeild that AO2 affords. Ace side-counting can ONLY be done effectively IF you use a side Ace point-count, like this one: A/-2 vs 3&5/+1. So you would need to keep two simultaneous point-counts, without which your yield is AT BEST comparable to ZEN with no Ace side-count.

Further, Bryce's TC-adjustment AND betting strategy are both seriously flawed. So the end result is that you wind up working harder for a gain that can be accomplished easier.

So I could recommend a better way. zg[/

OOUCH, that stings. Why dont i throw in memorizing that exact order of the pack while im at it! Who knows what my come in handy!
Flawed maybe, seriously flawed is a bit of an overstament, you dont get enshrined into the blackjack hall of fame with a seriously flawed system. Above and beyond that, my results say otherwise! What carlson is trying to do is compile every game with any number of decks into one and if you know where to sort out the differences you can avoid making costly mistakes.

Since your the math wizard, i was wondering if you could answer a few questions for me.
1. If your playing two hands; is it okay to insure one hand at +3 if you take full insurance at +6.
2. Besides fluctuation, will making max bets on one hand instead of two help or hurt your advantage since some casinos have stipulations about this?

 

[jack.jackson]

In actuality, if you are side-counting Aces the way Revere and Carlson recommend (1/4D estimation), then you are NOT getting the full effective yeild that AO2 affords. Ace side-counting can ONLY be done effectively IF you use a side Ace point-count, like this one: A/-2 vs 3&5/+1. So you would need to keep two simultaneous point-counts, without which your yield is AT BEST comparable to ZEN with no Ace side-count.

Further, Bryce's TC-adjustment AND betting strategy are both seriously flawed. So the end result is that you wind up working harder for a gain that can be accomplished easier.

So I could recommend a better way. zg[/

OOUCH, that stings. Why dont i throw in memorizing that exact order of the pack while im at it! Who knows what my come in handy!
Flawed maybe, seriously flawed is a bit of an overstament, you dont get enshrined into the blackjack hall of fame with a seriously flawed system. Above and beyond that, my results say otherwise! What carlson is trying to do is compile every game with any number of decks into one and if you know where to sort out the differences you can avoid making costly mistakes.

Since your the math wizard, i was wondering if you could answer a few questions for me.
1. If your playing two hands; is it okay to insure one hand at +3 if you take full insurance at +6.
2. Besides fluctuation, will making max bets on one hand instead of two help or hurt your advantage since some casinos have stipulations about this?

 

[Kasi]

1. If your playing two hands; is it okay to insure one hand at +3 if you take full insurance at +6.
2. Besides fluctuation, will making max bets on one hand instead of two help or hurt your advantage since some casinos have stipulations about this?

I'm no math wizard lol but I don't see how #1 would be right. I mean if u played 6 hands would you insure them all at +1? Or even 1 hand?

I would guess most of the time betting a 1-hand max on 2 hands would probably be overbetting a little most of the time. Ask yourself, if u were allowed and u could, would u bet 7 spots at max bet? Lose a few of those and your bankroll might be gonzo lol!

 

[positiveEV]

1. If your playing two hands; is it okay to insure one hand at +3 if you take full insurance at +6.
2. Besides fluctuation, will making max bets on one hand instead of two help or hurt your advantage since some casinos have stipulations about this?

1. The hole card don't care about how you bet your insurance! The right true count is always +3 no matter what, even if you played 7 hands the hole card would still have the same chances to be a 10 valued card, but every times you would be wrong about your insurance you would lose more by playing multiple hands.

2. The EV is always the same for each hand, but the variations are smaller by playing multiple hands at the same time. If you play 1 hand with a max bet and 2 hands with half a max bet on each, the variations are smaller on the second one. If you play 2 max bets of course the variation will be bigger, but there are times to do this: when the count is very high and you absolutely have to use that advantage or when other players are on the table and they are taking your good cards.

 

[Kasi]

If you play 2 max bets of course the variation will be bigger, but there are times to do this: when the count is very high and you absolutely have to use that advantage or when other players are on the table and they are taking your good cards.

I'm not sure there are ever times u should bet 2 max bets assuming your betting Kelly in the first place. Maybe 2 hands, like u say to use up cards, but not 2 hands of max bet.