uston simple +/-

Z

Z

Member
I am wondering where I could get the exact basic strategy deviations for the Uston simple +/-. I find it impossible to get straight answers from his book for a 6-8 deck game, DAS, DA2, S17, Late Surrender, and when these deviations should be made. I.e. what should be running or true count?

Thanks,
Z
 
T

The Mayor

Well-Known Member
Here it is...

Code: 
PROFESSIONAL BLACKJACK ANALYZER
<Version: PBA 4.3.7>

Results for file:  C:\PBA437\USTON.txt
November 21, 2002

The following rules were specified in the rules menu:
R>---------------------------------------------------
6- deck shoe
Insurance offered
Dealer stands on soft-17
With dealer blackjack, player...
     Loses one bet max
On ties, player pushes, except...
     Loses with 22-26
Resplit to make four hands
Resplit aces allowed
Doubling allowed on aces
OK to split unlike 10s, like J-Q
Check hole card under 10, A
Double any hard total
Soft doubling allowed
surrender two cards
     late surrender against 10
     late surrender against A
     initial hand only
After splitting...
Double any hard total
     Soft doubling allowed
     Double two cards only

Shufffle used was: Random Swaps
Dealt to 78 cards remaining.
R>--------------------------------------------------

The following counting system was used:
C>--------------------------------------------------
System name:  Uston

Count indices...
2    3    4    5    6    7    8    9    T     A
0    1    1    1    1    1    0    0    -1    -1

Minimum count for playing decisions:  -20
Maximum count for playing decisions:  20
C>--------------------------------------------------

B>---------------------------------------------------


The following strategy tables were obtained:
A>----------------------------------------------------
A>  INSURANCE INDEX
Insure hands at counts greater than or equal to 6

A>   HARD HIT/STAND
      2     3     4     5     6     7     8     9     10     A
21   S     S     S     S     S     S     S     S     S     S
20   S     S     S     S     S     S     S     S     S     S
19   S     S     S     S     S     S     S     S     S     S
18   S     S     S     S     S     S     S     S     S     S
17   S     S     S     S     S     S     S     S     S     S
16   S     S     S     S     S     17   H      14    1     8
15   S     S     S     S     S     H     H     H     9     11
14   S     S     S     S     S     H     H     H     16    15
13   -2    S     S     S     S     H     H     H     H     H
12   6     3    -1     S     S     H     H     H     H     H
11   H     H     H     H     H     H     H     H     H     H
10   H     H     H     H     H     H     H     H     H     H
 9   H     H     H     H     H     H     H     H     H     H
 8   H     H     H     H     H     H     H     H     H     H
 7   H     H     H     H     H     H     H     H     H     H
 6   H     H     H     H     H     H     H     H     H     H
 5   H     H     H     H     H     H     H     H     H     H
 4   H     H     H     H     H     H     H     H     H     H
 3   H     H     H     H     H     H     H     H     H     H
 2   H     H     H     H     H     H     H     H     H     H

A>   SOFT HIT/STAND
      2     3     4     5     6     7     8     9     10    A
A,10  S     S     S     S     S     S     S     S     S     S
A,9   S     S     S     S     S     S     S     S     S     S
A,8   S     S     S     S     S     S     S     S     S     S
A,7   S     S     S     S     S     S     S     H     H     H
A,6   H     H     H     H     H     H     H     H     H     H
A,5   H     H     H     H     H     H     H     H     H     H
A,4   H     H     H     H     H     H     H     H     H     H
A,3   H     H     H     H     H     H     H     H     H     H
A,2   H     H     H     H     H     H     H     H     H     H
A,A   H     H     H     H     H     H     H     H     H     H

A>   HARD DOUBLE
      2     3     4     5     6     7     8     9     10     A
12    -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -
11    D     D     D     D     D     D     D     D     D     0
10    D     D     D     D     D     D     D     D     8     6
9     2    -1     D     D     D     7     17    -     -     -
8     -     17    12    8     4     -     -     -     -     -
7     -     -     -     -     19    -     -     -     -     -
6     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -
5     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -
4     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -
3     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -
2     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -
A>   SOFT DOUBLE
      2     3     4     5     6     7     8     9     10     A
A,10  -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -
A,9   -     16    13    10    8     -     -     -     -     -
A,8   17    10    6     3     0     -     -     -     -     -
A,7   0     D     D     D     D     -     -     -     -     -
A,6   4     D     D     D     D     -     -     -     -     -
A,5   -     6     D     D     D     -     -     -     -     -
A,4   -     11    0     D     D     -     -     -     -     -
A,3   -     14    5     D     D     -     -     -     -     -
A,2   -     15    7     2     D     -     -     -     -     -
A,A   -     14    8     4     0     -     -     -     -     -

A>   PAIR SPLITS
      2     3     4     5     6     7     8     9     10    A
A,A   P     P     P     P     P     P     P     P     8     7
T,T   -     16    13    10    8     -     -     -     -     -
9,9   P     P     P     P     P     6     P     P     -     7
8,8   P     P     P     P     P     P     P     P     12*  -2
7,7   P     P     P     P     P     P      8    -     -     -
6,6   P     P     P     P     P     -     -     -     -     -
5,5   -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -
4,4   -     15    6    -1     P     -     -     -     -     -
3,3    0    P     P     P     P     P     -     -     -     -
2,2   P     P     P     P     P     P      7    -     -     -

A>  SURRENDER (HARD TOTALS)
      2     3     4     5     6     7     8     9     10     A
21    -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -
20    -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -
19    -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -
18    -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -
17    -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -      4*
16    -     -     -     -     -     -      9    -1    R     R
15    -     -     -     -     -     -      15    5     0    -1
14    -     -     -     -     -     -      20    11    5     6
13    -     -     -     -     -     -     -      19    13    19
12    -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -
11    -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -
10    -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -
 9    -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -
 8    -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -
 7    -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -
 6    -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -
 5    -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -
 4    -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -

A>----------------------------------------------------
 
T

The Mayor

Well-Known Member
Re: Here it is...

Just about any out there can do it, it is not a big deal. PBJA, SBA, Casino Verite, 6-7-8. But you don't need any software to answer your question because I'll tell you. For Hi-Lo, max out at +5 without surrender and +4 with surrender. Done!

The tougher task (much tougher!) is to actually put those max bets out there when the count says to.

--Mayor
 
L

learning to count

Well-Known Member
Re: Here it is...

Okay okay Plus seven and I lost my nerve. All I can say is wait to next time maybe in january I will see you at yolies. HAHA> LTC
 
Z

Z

Member
Re: Here it is...

THANK YOU, MAYOR!

Now, can somebody help me interpret the charts?
And is there a difference between 6 and 8 decks?
 
T

The Mayor

Well-Known Member
Re: Here it is...

For practical purposes, there is no difference between 6 decks and 8 deck indices or basic strategy. (There are some difference between 2 and 6 deck BS though).

What question do you have about the charts? I will help if you ask a question I can answer.

--Mayor
 
Z

Z

Member
Re: Here it is...

I am new to this. I have Uston's book and figured simple +/- would be a good place to start. So, I would play basic strategy and keep a running count. I would deviate from it in both betting and playing when the count reaches say +/-20 (?). Which would mean that I would have a + strategy and bet say 4 units and deviations such as staying on a 12 vs. 3, 16 vs. 10 etc. And a minus strategy and a bet say 1 unit and deviations like hitting 4,4, and 13 vs. 2,3, etc. When the running count is between -20 and 20 then just play basic strategy and 2 unit bets. I was looking to verify my deviation strategies, particularly surrender on plus and minus counts for Foxwoods rules. Basic strategy tells me to surrender 16 vs. 9, 10, A and 15 vs. 10.
How would I read your surrender chart? I just don't know what those numbers mean.
Sorry for my ignorance.
Thank you for your help!
Z
 
zengrifter

zengrifter

Banned
Re: Here it is... HERE

HERE, borrowed (loosely) from JGrossjean's 'RunningHiLo' page 34 -

1. Buy insurance w/RC +10 or higher
2. Stand on 16v10 w/RC +2 or higher
3. Stand on 15v10 w/RC+11 or higher
4. Surrendar 16v9/10/A w/RC -1 or higher
5. Surrendar 15v10/A w/RC -1 or higher
--------------------
6. Bet the RC -2 chips (ie, RC=+4 bet 2u)
7. Max bet of 10u @ RC of +12
8. When RC of -6 exit to a fresh shoe
9. Best to bet -0- w/RC of +2 or lower
--------------------

Would someone like to proffer a guess as to the RORuin playing this way with a starting bank of 500u? I would guess it to be 33%+ zg
 
Z

Z

Member
Re: Here it is... HERE

OK. I give up. Maybe there isn't an Uston Simple +/- system.
I.e. 3 bet sizes (1,2,4 units), 3 strategies (-,Basic,+) and keeping a running count.
It seems that I should learn a matrix of strategies with a running count. I am still unclear about bet sizes, I think bet=RC is a bit radical. 33% element of ruin is unacceptable. While I am at it, should I just convert to true count as well? Anyone know the difference between the playing accuracy of RC vs. TC?
Thank you for your patience and help guys,
Z
 
A

Abraham de Moivre

Well-Known Member
A better suggestion

Get "Knockout Blackjack".
An unbalanced count that is also 1-level, no TC conversion.
Much more clear on what and when to bet and play.
More effective on getting the money than the +/- in RC mode.
 
M

MrPill

Well-Known Member
Re: A better suggestion AGREED...Red 7

Here! Here!

Red 7 has been, and continues to be, a "comfortable" system for this casual player. It has performed well for me over this past year and hopefully will continue to in the future.

Pill
 
A

AcesFool

New Member
Red7 vs KO?

i just read BB in BJ by Snyder. if both red seven and KO are equally strong, wouldn't it be better to just use KO since I dont have to worry about Red/black.

Also, if I'm only playing, say once a month at foxwoods, is their any point to using high/low with a true count conversion?

finally, do you surrender 8,8 vs. 9,10,A or split? (Foxwoods)
 
A

Adam N. Subtractum

Well-Known Member
Red Sevens vs. Knockout vs. Hi-lo

This is one of the most frequently asked questions by beginners and novices alike who are contemplating the use of a simple system. Many "experts" have often recommended that "it doesn't matter which count you use, just pick one you are comfortable using..." or something of the like. I believe when contemplating the use of counts of _similar difficulty levels_, which count is best for you should ultimately be decided by several factors:

- Advantage play methods you intend to employ in the future
- Modifications to "base" count you intend to add in the future
- Playing style
- How often you play

I'll briefly comment on each factor, to give you an idea of what I mean.

A simple example of the first point is if one is planning on adding shuffle-tracking to his arsenal...the obvious choice would be the balanced option, hi-lo (some research I am conducting, which stems from earlier work by Pete Moss and Michael Hall on unbalanced ST'ing, may alter this, but is beyond the scope of this post). Another example would be a zealous player who wants to use sequencing ON TOP of counting methods...he would be much better off using an unbalanced count, so he only needs to keep a simple running count on top of his sequencing info.

A simple example of the second point is a player who intends to incorporate some sort of "pseudo" or "quasi" true count in the future. IMO he would be better off with the +4 unbalance of KO, rather than the +2 unbalance of R7. My reasoning for this is that with the KO pivot you are always _exactly_ accurate with your max bet out, and fairly accurate at other points because of the "quasi" TC adjustments. With Red Sevens, we will be _exactly_ accurate at lower bet levels, and only fairly accurate at point of max bet.

As for playing style, it should be fairly obvious, as I and others (including Dr. Brett Harris) have pointed out the great utility of the Red Seven's +2 unbalance for Wonging purposes. Red Sevens would be the obvious choice for the player who's primary style of play is backcounting. Another example would be a player who uses Schlesinger's "White Rabbit" metholodogy, and might want to use hi-lo so they are always _exactly_ accurate at 0.

The final point should also be fairly obvious, a player who plays very infrequently would be advised to stick with a running count system, as their deck estimation would be very gross with limited practice.

These points can each affect each other, and I'll post some more thoughts later.

ANS
 
A

Adam N. Subtractum

Well-Known Member
Surrendering 8,8...

"...finally, do you surrender 8,8 vs. 9,10,A or split? (Foxwoods)"

Sorry, I forgot to respond to this question in my previous post. Basic Strategy tells us the only time we would surrender 8,8 is against an Ace, with H17, two or more decks. So in your case, do not surrender 8,8.

If you are using surrender indices, then there will be a point where surrendering 8,8 will become the favorable option.

-Hi-Lo-

8,8 v 9 >= +7
8,8 v T >= 0

-KO(8 deck)-

8,8 v T >= -5

I'll post a follow-up with the Risk Averse numbers if you'd like.

ANS
 
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