Waiting for a down

Dopple

Well-Known Member
If you came of a great winning streak would you maybe think twice about a trip to a high stakes location. The reason being is that it always seemed to me after a big winning streak I generally had a big downfall in the past.

I know they are supposed to be not related but would it not be on your mind.

On a similar note I believe we are best to play as close to machine-like in our actions giving very little weight to hunch type moves.
 

Sonny

Well-Known Member
It is human nature to think about things like that. Even though there is no reason to expect a negative streak, part of your mind still expects it. Also, part of your brain really doesn’t want to lose that money back. I think we all feel that way after a big win. If your win was a significant amount of money to you then you could find reasons to pull some of it out of your bankroll to use for other things in life.

Negative streaks are always unexpected. You never know when they will come or how bad they will be. If you spend your life worrying about them you will go crazy. Just relax and deal with them when they come.

-Sonny-
 

sagefr0g

Well-Known Member
Sonny said:
It is human nature to think about things like that. Even though there is no reason to expect a negative streak, part of your mind still expects it. Also, part of your brain really doesn’t want to lose that money back. I think we all feel that way after a big win. If your win was a significant amount of money to you then you could find reasons to pull some of it out of your bankroll to use for other things in life.

Negative streaks are always unexpected. You never know when they will come or how bad they will be. If you spend your life worrying about them you will go crazy. Just relax and deal with them when they come.

-Sonny-
yes it's that gift we have as humans. the ability to recognize patterns and draw conclusions about what they mean. problem is as in the Gambler's Fallacy it don't work lol since the patterns are associated with independent events instead of dependent events. that's where i'm trying to use this ability we have channeling it to the fuzzy count and bridling it to dependent events.
 

Canceler

Well-Known Member
Sonny said:
Negative streaks are always unexpected. You never know when they will come or how bad they will be. If you spend your life worrying about them you will go crazy. Just relax and deal with them when they come.
Exactly. This is why there has been so much talk of risk of ruin lately; to try to ensure that people can survive whatever happens to them.

To really drive yourself crazy, try thinking about these two together:
1. You're never due for anything.
2. The pendulum always swings back.
 

Sonny

Well-Known Member
Canceler said:
To really drive yourself crazy, try thinking about these two together:
1. You're never due for anything.
2. The pendulum always swings back.
Here's a few more that will keep you up at night:

1. You have about a 49% chance of losing your next session.
2. Full-time pro counters sometimes play for many months and still show a loss.
3. Your bankroll is only at a high point about 1% of the time. That means 99% of the time you will be be "poorer" than you where before.

-Sonny-
 

Guynoire

Well-Known Member
This sounds just like logic to me. All winning streaks have to end by losing streaks, if you didn't lose the winning steak would continue.

Rationally, we all know that each session is independent, barring things like getting kicked out, reduced playing conditions...etc. so the best strategy is to pretend that you're starting all over again only richer, but this is very hard to do.
 

blackjack avenger

Well-Known Member
Play Is Continuous

What is a large win?
If you win 20 units in an hour and you think that is big, how do you know you won't win another 30 units in the next hour? The game has a wide standard deviation. All we can do is play.
 

EasyRhino

Well-Known Member
losing streaks are a sword of damocles. You don't know when they're going to hit, but you know it's going to happen eventually.
 

Dopple

Well-Known Member
The post was for more than to answer my own question, without sounding confrontational.

It is correct that although previous wins should not effect outcome imagine this simple scenario:

Jack Jones plays heads up for ten years at the same joint 10 hours a day and he has established a very good baseline of what his hourly expectation is. If over the last 10 hours he finds himself far above any other streak in the past with a great loss needed to bring himself to average then he is at a disadvantage in effect and due for a fall.

Would you in similar situations change your pattern i.e. if a rare change to play at higher minimum came up would you bypass it?

I have tried to minimize the variables here and just find it interesting.
 

Sonny

Well-Known Member
Dopple said:
If over the last 10 hours he finds himself far above any other streak in the past with a great loss needed to bring himself to average then he is at a disadvantage in effect and due for a fall.
There is no disadvantage. He is not “due” for anything. There is no reason to think that a negative streak is immediately going to come along and “even him out.” That’s like watching a roulette wheel hit 5 black numbers in a row and thinking that you have an advantage by betting on red to “even things out.” He got lucky and he should expect the same results after that session as he did before it.

Dopple said:
Would you in similar situations change your pattern i.e. if a rare change to play at higher minimum came up would you bypass it?
Absolutely not. As long as you have enough money to safely make the bet, make it.

-Sonny-
 

sagefr0g

Well-Known Member
Dopple said:
........
Would you in similar situations change your pattern .......
lol, the stress of being up at some dizzing height while knowing that a fall is bound to come sooner or later. waiting for the other shoe to drop so to speak. the idea that just maybe you can anticipate the fall and lessen the impact or what ever.:rolleyes:
there is no scientific basis for doing that as far as i know. just kind of have to take those beatings when they come like a big boy lol.
but to be truthful about my own behavior i'm one to tuck my tail and run and hide when i think i'm in the situation you describe lol. i know it slows my winrate down. but i get a kick out of savoring my wins for a while but also charging back into battle after a defeat. all an illusion or just a narrow way to view the big picture i know.
 

Dopple

Well-Known Member
But then how can you refute that fact that a long established hourly expectation has been achieved in this case and you will find your way back to that win rate average with all factors equal.

A correction will come although it may not been in the near future I would speculate that after a big win streak your total collective winnings over the next period say 6 months will on average be less than after an equal loss streak.

I may be getting a little, well you know, but I think I am right.

Maybe we should just drop it.
 

Sonny

Well-Known Member
Dopple said:
A correction will come although it may not been in the near future I would speculate that after a big win streak your total collective winnings over the next period say 6 months will on average be less than after an equal loss streak.
But a “correction” doesn’t necessarily mean a losing streak. If the player continues to have his expected EV for another 10 hours then his results would start to even out, right? He doesn’t have to lose any money back in order for the percentages to approach the average. Here are a few discussions about this:

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?p=67906#post67906
http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showpost.php?p=68238&postcount=14

Basically, the more you play the less significant your short-term results become. Even though you never "lose it back" your win rate begins to approach your EV as the number of hands approaches infinity (or death, whichever comes first :)).

-Sonny-
 

Dopple

Well-Known Member
Thanks Sonny, good point and I appreciate the feedback.

On a similar note, as I get back into this game I love so much:

One thing about winning streaks or just short winning shoes or even individual situations that I find encouraging is the fact that since the math of the game is so constant you can be sure as these blessings occur that they will do so ad infinitum into the future.
 

EasyRhino

Well-Known Member
Also, if bet size is increasing with bankroll, you can get wilder long term fluctuations.

If our made up bettor is continuously resizing bets to full kelly, then SOME bettors are going to end up with ridiculously amazing stratospheric growth rates. Some are going to nearly bust and and end up arguably lower than when they started even over a long stretch. And most will end up grinding out modest gains like the rest of us.

If a player is not changing the bet spread, then it's easier to eventually revert to the mean.
 

Mimosine

Well-Known Member
Sonny said:
But a “correction” doesn’t necessarily mean a losing streak. If the player continues to have his expected EV for another 10 hours then his results would start to even out, right? He doesn’t have to lose any money back in order for the percentages to approach the average.
this correction could come in the form of 10 break even sessions. 100 break even sessions, etc. etc. it depends how long you play for after such a "big win."

but just as others have pointed out, you could keep on winning too, the summation of all your play however will fall within certain prescribed limits based on statistical distributions that occur as a function of EV, SD, win rate, count used, indicies used, advantage you play with, how long you play, how big your bankroll is etc....
 

Kasi

Well-Known Member
Dopple said:
Jack Jones plays heads up for ten years at the same joint 10 hours a day and he has established a very good baseline of what his hourly expectation is. If over the last 10 hours he finds himself far above any other streak in the past with a great loss needed to bring himself to average then he is at a disadvantage in effect and due for a fall.
Well, if he had already played the same game the same way for 3650 10 hour sessions, he probbaly has already experienced results exceeding 3 or more standard deviations for both wins and losses.

So, if he suddenly experienced a 10 hour session that greatly exceeded any 10 hour session in the past, either he wasn't betting the same, etc., or it's so unlikley, 1 in 1000's say, that the chances of losing it back in a future 10 hour session is extremely unlikely.

So, basically, if you just won alot, like I think you maybe did lol, and congrats if so, were you really betting as planned or maybe just got a little crazy and won some big bets?

Either way, like Sonny said, if you plan to maybe play a higher min game because maybe your roll has increased, plan your strategy accordingly with the roll you have and see if it makes sense to you.
 

sagefr0g

Well-Known Member
Dopple said:
But then how can you refute that fact that a long established hourly expectation has been achieved in this case and you will find your way back to that win rate average with all factors equal.

A correction will come although it may not been in the near future I would speculate that after a big win streak your total collective winnings over the next period say 6 months will on average be less than after an equal loss streak.

I may be getting a little, well you know, but I think I am right.

Maybe we should just drop it.
hopefully it wont just be dropped. and of course you are right IMHO. hey let's not forget how limited the power of card counting is in reality. so what you mention above is a known fact. that is knowledge we have. so let's appreciate that fact. orthodox card counting can't put that knowledge to any useful affect. nor (as far as i know) can a computer simulation. but there is an enourmous potential to either save or gain in this knowledge if we as decision making humans only knew when lol.
so with orthodx counting we charge head long into battle knowing full well that the next battle might likely be lost but also knowing that most likely we shall win more battles than we lose over all and at least that we are likely to win the war lol. but wouldn't it be great if we could avoid some of those losing battles or at least lessen the loses in those losing battles?
the big question is of course when. and that is what we can't know lol.
you mentioned six months and that seems reasonable to you. but then for my limited experience well i went two years with out what was in my perception a significant loss. but all along i knew the other shoe was going to drop sooner or later and it did with a resounding boom that being one seventh of my bankroll going back into the casino's couffers. and of course when did it happen? just when i'd increased my bet spread of course. doesn't anything that can go wrong, go wrong at the worst possible time? lol murphy's law or something.
variance, standard deviation and fluctuation or what ever you want to call it is huge in blackjack. and with orthodox card counting we know that all of that not with standing we have this expectation for time spent at some rate of hands played per hour. so as mentioned above the big question we can't answer is when. but part of the answer as you allude to is that within a knowledge of where we are at with respect to our expectation is an element of the knowledge of time. and even yet we still can't answer the question of when. when are we going soaring above our expectation, when are we just going to realize expectation or when are we plummeting to the depths of hell.
but we have one other bit of knowledge. we know something about our selves. the computer can't be happy with it's self. it doesn't have a self lol.
but we can. unfortunately (i think) the professional blackjack card counter can't be happy with his self either if he wants to make the most money. he needs to be virtually selfless with repsect to play and glean his happyness from his professional conduct and the knowledge that he'll reach his expectation at some risk of ruin. but as a professional card counter he has given up his option of deciding anything about the question of when. that is if he has a long future of playing as a professional.
but a recreational player does have some degree's of freedom as to dabbling with the question of when. that degree of freedom would ultimately be bounded by the size of the advantage or expectation and the goal the rec player has. if your goal=G is smaller than your expectation (as an orthodox counter) then you have EV - G = F where degree's of freedom = F. so what you can do is take F and gamble with it how ever you choose in the game of blackjack and it is as if you were gambling against a fair game such as an unbiased coin flip. ( lol at least i think thats true)
according to your goal you are already a happy camper. so if you choose not to gamble F you can still play along happily and actually happily over the factor of G by F. if you decide to do so you can place F at risk when ever you decide (within the bounds of EV) and if you lose it your still happy with G and if you win it your happy by EV + F, which leaves you very happy indeed (for a possibly only brief moment lol ). but here is where the situation that you alluded to can come into play. say your on that pinacle (high or low) and all you know is sooner or later but not when but when is likely to be soon the question becomes wouldn't that be a good time to choose to gamble or not gamble some saved up F? lol i'm probably full of you know what here just some more of my ramblings that the bullet chaser probably should relegate to the voodoo forum. :joker:
edit ===>> i guess that gambling with F some would raise your risk of ruin.
 
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