Wonging in by back-betting other players

[Automatic Monkey]

This is a new trick I want to try. The stores where I play are always too crowded to Wong in effectively although I do Wong out/around.

So what I want to do is: watch a full table and look for a player who is playing Basic Strategy properly. Then when the count is right, back bet him.

Advantage: all the advantages of Wonging in. Also, the store I have in mind has LSR and allows a back better to LSR on his own without the seated player getting involved.

Disadvantages: player could suddenly forget his Basic Strategy. And Basic Strategy only, I won't get to play any indexes and they become quite powerful as the count increases. Then there is blackmail, and all the other political situations back betting brings with it.

So what do you think, is it worth it?

 

[zengrifter]

Re: Wonging in ...better idea -

So what I want to do is: watch a full table and look for a player who is playing Basic Strategy properly. Then when the count is right, back bet him.

So what do you think, is it worth it?
---------------------------

Better idea - look for a counter and back-bet him! Better yet - look for multiple counters and hop from table to table backing them all! zg

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Re: Wonging in ...better idea -

That's a good idea. Only problem is, most of the counters I've met so far have been awful. Awful! Seems as though the craft attracts some people who think they can, but can't. There's also the security risk of being seen with other counters and being busted as a team. But if I was waiting to Wong into a full table and I saw a guy who was definitely counting using some count that I recognize as such, I'd back him.

Probably the best BS players I've seen overall have been older Korean women and there are a lot of them where I play. One even recognized me as a counter even though she wasn't counting herself. They will often back bet me even though they are seated at the same table and playing. That might be a way to be able to spread to two hands on a crowded table too, just sit next to someone who is amenable to back betting.

 

[Rob McGarvey]

Claymore Crossifre

In a crowded casino as you play in that can end up being your best bet AM. My most recent trips have been with a good friend where we will take up three spots between the two of us and use the spot between us as well as each others spots to bet large, and hopefully trap some tracked Aces as they come up. If you have better conditions you should spread to as many tables/counters as suggested, but I don't think you play in LV where you can go heads up almost any time any where.

 

[phantom007]

As a Player, Back-Betters Bug Me....

Yeah. I know. Just like the ploppies who DD on 12, "it makes no difference in the long run". However, having the extra pressure of someone else's bet behind mine, worried whether they will cough up the proper DD/Split amount, and of course, Insurance, all are just horribly distracting. Also, slows the game to a crawl.

"Sir, I back-bet you because it seemed you knew what you were doing. You should be good enough to know that you NEVER take Insurance." The BJ table is not usually the best place to explain: "TC is +10, and that Ace-up is the last in the deck, and I have also side-counted.....................................
..............................................................................
..............................................................................
........45 Minutes later..................therefore, the ratio of non-10's to 10's is 1.7:1, therefore, Insurance is a Monster Bet!"

And I NEVER like anyone fumbling around MY chips...I get very territorial about these.

Anymore, if someone asks to "Rear-end", I mean Back-bet me, I just say no. Does not mean that ocasionally, I don't mind doing it to others (grin).

phantom007.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Re: As a Player, Back-Betters Bug Me....

Ha good one! I guess you could say that back-betters BUGGER you!

This place is very nice about back betters and it doesn't effect the seated player at all. If you split and the back better doesn't want to, he can pick one hand to move his bet to or split his back bet between the two hands and he doesn't have to participate in DD or insurance if he doesn't want to. So there is some advantage to this. It allows you to "split for less" on defensive splits such as 8-8 vs. 9,X,A.

 

[Rob McGarvey]

Re: As a Player, Back-Betters Bug Me.... *LINK*

Usually when I have someone back betting my hand they are doing so because they know something about my play that others do not. As mentioned this does bring more attention to you if the guy back bets you and no one else. It is pretty easy to shake someone off if you want to by pulling a bonehead move on them. I usually know by looking in the back bettors eyes if he knows what he is dealing with, that he knows exactly why he is backing me. I'll catch up with him later and usually end up keeping in touch after that. You also have to use your feel re the pit. You'll know when they hair on your shoulder stands up that you are getting the evil eye from them.

As a back bettor there can be great opportunity in playing with non BS players. If you can +EV double or +EV split with them you will be laughing. Here's a link to a file that will help you get an idea of the edge you can gain from these plays:

(Dead link: http://tinyurl.com/39e7c)

 

[Victoria]

Possibility of blackmail?

From what I am reading it seems that your casino considers the unseated or seated player who places a bet on your hand a separate bet. I do not think this is common but am not sure.
At the places where I generally play if one wants to bet on another's hand the chips are combined within the circle.
You then must agree upon splits. You can double and insure for less.
You must keep the money straight between you. I have seen disputes.
The owner of the seat is responsible for the play of the hand which subjects the backbetter to a senerio I witnessed in Vegas two years ago.

A big player was in a mid sized strip property. They had increased limits on all their tables because this guy would take markers on several tables and move around whenever he got the urge. He would place $10,000 bets in three circles on $5 tables. Security was everywhere because he would just get up, leave his chips and sit at another table. He would also bet on others hands. He put 5 grand under my $75 bet once and when I got 2,2 vs 7, he told me to do what I wanted. Luckily we won, but I felt pressure on his bet.

At the same table he put $5,000 under a woman's $25 bet and when they got a blackjack, she told him to pay her $1,000 or she would double down. He was drunk and loud (if you loose like him you can be as drunk and loud as you want) and the pit boss had to tell him that it was her hand and she could play it as she wanted, and please stop calling her those names. The blackmail worked, the $10 better took her grand and left, but my point is that betting upon someone else's hands can subject you to that persons greed.

Personally I do not do it and do not want the bother of someone playing on my circle. Since I talk alot at the table while counting, the extra thoughts of that persons bet are just unwanted. To explain I use my best ploppyish, and tell them that every time someone bets on my hand I seem to loose, it's just bad luck for me.
Victoria

 

[Rob McGarvey]

Re: Possibility of blackmail?

She was playing a very dangerous game. With my "luck," she'd probably pull a ten after I give her the 1000yd stare from 1" away and whisper to her

'go ahead, make my day'

All the Kings horses
And all the Kings men
Couldn't find blackmail
To put her together again

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Re: Possibility of blackmail?

I agree. Do not make enemies in the casino! You never know who you are dealing with. I wouldn't fear angering a criminal or violent person as much as I would a drunken, corrupt cop.

Victoria: Yes this shop does treat a back bet as separate. One time I had a ploppy playing behind me who was surrendering all stiffs vs. dealer 7-A. So the dealer would take half his bet and I would play the rest of the hand just like normal. Now hit/stand decisions or DD decisions are the seated player's, but the back player never has to come up with more money for doubles or splits. It all just sounds like an advantage play waiting to be played, to me.

 

[zengrifter]

Re: Possibility of blackmail?

At the same table he put $5,000 under a woman's $25 bet and when they got a blackjack, she told him to pay her $1,000 or she would double down.
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** She's a woman after my own heart! I was at the craps table playing $5 chips once and the big better asked my to roll hard-6. I asked him if he'd pay me $100 if I did and he said yes - then it happened, he temporarily forgot the deal, I reminded him, he paid. Many times I've given unsolicited BS advice to a much bigger BJ player at the table ("split those 9s v.4") and when they win I say "you owe me $x" and they often pay! zg

 

[phantom007]

Link Ain't Work'n!

 

[Rob McGarvey]

It's an Excel File

 

[wong out]

As a general rule I dont wong in on someone I think is a BS player since too often a player looks good and then all of a sudden he stands with a 16 vs a 7 etc. If I pick up a counter I will wong in to take adv of those high counts. I have no problems with people backlining me; I make it into a festive ploppy event and frankly I would rather they play behind me than to open up a spot and eat cards. too each his own..

wong out