zen count question

agc28

Member
I did buy the Snyder book. but it is still in shipping and I can't wait to have my question answered.

Verite has a complete zen count and a '98 zen count. the indices look entirely different for the two of them. what's the catch? I've been using the complete count and I thought I was doing the right thing until I looked at the tables for 98 zen.
 

rukus

Well-Known Member
agc28 said:
I did buy the Snyder book. but it is still in shipping and I can't wait to have my question answered.

Verite has a complete zen count and a '98 zen count. the indices look entirely different for the two of them. what's the catch? I've been using the complete count and I thought I was doing the right thing until I looked at the tables for 98 zen.
ignore the 98 count. use the original complete count. the complete count uses 1D true count conversion while the 98 uses 1/4D true count conversion. the 1/4D conversion leads to loss of resolution in the index numbers. the complete indices should be about 4x as large as the 98 numbers.

as a matter of fact, ppl like renzey (and also zg) are advocating 2D true count conversions to further minimize resolution loss.
 

agc28

Member
yes. i think i've read 2D explanations on this forum but I still don't understand it. :) and i dont know what loss of resolution means.
 

rukus

Well-Known Member
agc28 said:
yes. i think i've read 2D explanations on this forum but I still don't understand it. :) and i dont know what loss of resolution means.
let's say you have a running count of 8, with 1 deck remaining.
if you were using the 1/4D '98 version, you would divide 8 by 4, and get 2 as your TC. if you were using the 1D version, you would divide 8 by 1, leaving you with TC of 8. simple enough.

but what if your running count was something like 4, 5, 6, or 7 with 1 deck remaining? no matter which of the running counts above, with the '98 version, your TC will always be 1 since you are dividing each of those running counts by 4 and rounding down/flooring. but with a 1D true count conversion, your TCs will actually differ and be 4, 5, 6, or 7 respectively. make sense so far?

with the 98 version, you will have "compressed" your information into 1 single TC for each of those 4 running counts and your strategy deviation by TC will not be able to differentiate between which situation you are in. with the full deck conversion, you get separate TCs for each of the running counts i list above and so you can actually be more accurate with playing deviations since you have "expanded" your possible TC into 4 different TCs for that situation. and you can then learn a different deviation (if needed) for each of those TCs. but if all four running counts convert to a TC of 1, you will have no choice but to make the same play/deviation for each of those counts even though they might not all precisely call for it. does that make sense?

if not, there was a good thread on these boards a while back that did a better job explaining it than i could ever hope to do. search for something like "2D TC conversion" or "true count resolution", something like that. maybe someone else can chime in with a link?
 

agc28

Member
very good explanation. thank you rukus.

why was the 98 zen count invented then? i thought you divide by an extra 4 to get the true edge ..(which isn't that useful, it seems)
 

zengrifter

Banned
I didn't get it at first - in fact I kept thinking that at some point I might even switch to 1/4DTC - even GeoC endorsed it.

Now I tend to endorse the 2DTC, though I've never actually used it. And why though I am not excited about Fred Renzey's Mentor card-tags with the 9 in there, the combination of the 2DTC Mentor, the well articulated BJ Bluebook, and Fred's access through BJINFO, makes Mentor a great alternative to ZEN.

So Norm, am I on solid ground with this 2DTC thing? zg
 
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