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I am presently using the Zen count, working on memorizing indices, and am coming up against a logic problem that my mind can’t seem to wrap itself around. In the index section involving hard doubles, the counts are as low as -19 (11v7). As a secondary note I am using the True count method, not the 1/4 deck True edge. The translation of this index, 11v7 stand @TC>-19 makes very little sense to me in logical analysis. In doubling down, it makes sense to avoid doing so at lower counts when more face value cards have been outweighed by the smaller cards available. However, unless I’m totally out to lunch on this one, this index specifies that I double against a seven, only at times where it would be terribly unlikely for me to receive a strong hand making card as well as being relatively advantageous to the dealer in advantage, and to avoid doing so, when the cards would be favorable to double as well. Am I interpreting this wrong, or is my logic simply wrong?
Also, thank you so much Ken for keeping up and running this sight. The information here has been invaluable on my card counting training, and has made for a greater resource than most of the money I will probably make in recreational play.
Secondary note, if there are any Tarantino fans out there, there are 88 indices to memorize for the Zen Count. Made my day ^_^
Indexes can be confusing because they mean different things for different decisions. The 11v7 index is a doubling index, where you should hit when the count is below the index, and double when the count is at or above the index number. In this case, that means hit 11v7 if the count is -20 or worse, and double 11v7 if the count is -19 or better. That should make sense to you.
While this specific conversation is about the Zen count (and users of Hi-Lo are probably thinking “-19, what?!”), the same principle applies to any system’s indexes. If you aren’t sure how to interpret the different types of indexes, I recommend my explanation under the header “What are the different kinds of Index Numbers?” on this page: https://www.blackjackinfo.com/card/advanced-strategy-card-instructions/
If I am playing in the European style, with no hole card and I am the last player in the table. I have 16 against a dealer 10. Basic strategy says you must hit. But in the European style, the next card can be for the player (if he hits) or for the dealer (if he stands). If the player hits good cards for the player are A, 2, 3, 4, 5. But, except for the Ace, all other is also good for the player since it is possible he bust with the next card. It is the same for a 15 against 10, or a 15 against 9 etc.
My question: Should I change the basic strategy in this case? In which cases.
No, do not change basic strategy in any of these situations. By deciding to take or leave the next card in the shoe, you cannot impact the dealer’s expected outcome in any way. Think of it this way. If the dealer always burned a card before drawing, would it make any difference? No. Play your hand by basic strategy. That’s all you can do.
How about asking the complainer: “So you think the casino purposely put the Blackjack cards in just the right order so that YOUR hand would win and that OTHER GUY screwed it up for YOU? Wow, that’s so nice of the casino to try to give YOU money!”
I have a crazy question, I play, ” blackjack professional simulator “, by pepperdogsoft.com on my iPhone it is set for six decks, das, h17, surrender and da2 and at rather large true counts it tell me to double hard 12 v a dealer 2 as an I18 suggestion, I have won that a couple of times, but in all my reading I can’t find anywhere else that is suggested, have you ever heard of such a thing.? I thought you should hit 12 v 2 until true 3. Thanks
I’m not familiar with that product, but I can tell you that if an app EVER says to double a hard 12, you should delete that app immediately!
The only time you should ever double hard 12 is if the dealer accidentally reveals the card you will receive and you know it is a 9!
Seriously, I would question the accuracy of anything else this app tells you. That’s a horrible mistake.
You are correct in hitting 12v2 until the true count reaches +3. At that point and above, stand. Never ever double.
(The index varies slightly in one-deck and some two-deck games.)
what is ment by rare hand like ( a 3 or 9 3 ) i am playing a game call hit or stand witch it grades you on the correct amount of hands that you get correct so far these two hands do not double this is a rare hand
playing blackjack betting the minimum except always betting the amount you are behind (progressive loses) with the expectation the win will bring you back to zero lose each time. Is it practical you can win two hands often enough to have a net profit at the end of you day gambling?
Thanks! You may be right about the surrender issue, although it is possible that the surrender may only work if the dealer does NOT have blackjack. I’m not bothering to check because the new version is coming soon anyway, which is a complete rewrite.
Hello,
I think there is one issue in trainer program.
When is using late surrender with the dealer ace trainer first offers surrendering instead of insurance.
And again I continue to win.
May be there is a reason to imitate dealers shuffling, instead of mathematical random shuffling.
Make sure you are including the cards behind the cut card in your unseen decks. In your example, when we are halfway through six decks, that means 3 decks have been dealt, and 3 decks are still unseen. It doesn’t matter that many of the unseen cards will never be used because they are behind the cut card. You still use them in the calculation. So a running count of +20 would convert to a true count of +20/3, or +6.66. With the same true count one deck later (4 decks used, 2 unseen), the true count would by +20/2 = +10.
Ignore any unseen cards. It essentially reduces penetration by one card. The new version of the trainer won’t have this issue. Thanks for reminding me!
minimum bet a beginning of new shoe
I am presently using the Zen count, working on memorizing indices, and am coming up against a logic problem that my mind can’t seem to wrap itself around. In the index section involving hard doubles, the counts are as low as -19 (11v7). As a secondary note I am using the True count method, not the 1/4 deck True edge. The translation of this index, 11v7 stand @TC>-19 makes very little sense to me in logical analysis. In doubling down, it makes sense to avoid doing so at lower counts when more face value cards have been outweighed by the smaller cards available. However, unless I’m totally out to lunch on this one, this index specifies that I double against a seven, only at times where it would be terribly unlikely for me to receive a strong hand making card as well as being relatively advantageous to the dealer in advantage, and to avoid doing so, when the cards would be favorable to double as well. Am I interpreting this wrong, or is my logic simply wrong?
Also, thank you so much Ken for keeping up and running this sight. The information here has been invaluable on my card counting training, and has made for a greater resource than most of the money I will probably make in recreational play.
Secondary note, if there are any Tarantino fans out there, there are 88 indices to memorize for the Zen Count. Made my day ^_^
http://blackjackforumonline.com/content/Zen_Count_Indices.htm
Indexes can be confusing because they mean different things for different decisions. The 11v7 index is a doubling index, where you should hit when the count is below the index, and double when the count is at or above the index number. In this case, that means hit 11v7 if the count is -20 or worse, and double 11v7 if the count is -19 or better. That should make sense to you.
While this specific conversation is about the Zen count (and users of Hi-Lo are probably thinking “-19, what?!”), the same principle applies to any system’s indexes. If you aren’t sure how to interpret the different types of indexes, I recommend my explanation under the header “What are the different kinds of Index Numbers?” on this page: https://www.blackjackinfo.com/card/advanced-strategy-card-instructions/
If I am playing in the European style, with no hole card and I am the last player in the table. I have 16 against a dealer 10. Basic strategy says you must hit. But in the European style, the next card can be for the player (if he hits) or for the dealer (if he stands). If the player hits good cards for the player are A, 2, 3, 4, 5. But, except for the Ace, all other is also good for the player since it is possible he bust with the next card. It is the same for a 15 against 10, or a 15 against 9 etc.
My question: Should I change the basic strategy in this case? In which cases.
No, do not change basic strategy in any of these situations. By deciding to take or leave the next card in the shoe, you cannot impact the dealer’s expected outcome in any way. Think of it this way. If the dealer always burned a card before drawing, would it make any difference? No. Play your hand by basic strategy. That’s all you can do.
How about asking the complainer: “So you think the casino purposely put the Blackjack cards in just the right order so that YOUR hand would win and that OTHER GUY screwed it up for YOU? Wow, that’s so nice of the casino to try to give YOU money!”
Hey,
So when you say that you need to be able to get through 2 decks in 40 seconds, is that doing one card at a time or in pairs?
Remerciements
That would be in pairs. Cancelling out cards really speeds up the process.
Awesome thanks for you help!
I have a crazy question, I play, ” blackjack professional simulator “, by pepperdogsoft.com on my iPhone it is set for six decks, das, h17, surrender and da2 and at rather large true counts it tell me to double hard 12 v a dealer 2 as an I18 suggestion, I have won that a couple of times, but in all my reading I can’t find anywhere else that is suggested, have you ever heard of such a thing.? I thought you should hit 12 v 2 until true 3. Thanks
I’m not familiar with that product, but I can tell you that if an app EVER says to double a hard 12, you should delete that app immediately!
The only time you should ever double hard 12 is if the dealer accidentally reveals the card you will receive and you know it is a 9!
Seriously, I would question the accuracy of anything else this app tells you. That’s a horrible mistake.
You are correct in hitting 12v2 until the true count reaches +3. At that point and above, stand. Never ever double.
(The index varies slightly in one-deck and some two-deck games.)
Thanks, I knew I wasn’t crazy, I thought the same thing you said, I would only ever do it I absolutely and positively knew my next card was a 9.
what is ment by rare hand like ( a 3 or 9 3 ) i am playing a game call hit or stand witch it grades you on the correct amount of hands that you get correct so far these two hands do not double this is a rare hand
No. See this: https://www.blackjackinfo.com/odds-blackjack-losing-6-hands-in-a-row/
playing blackjack betting the minimum except always betting the amount you are behind (progressive loses) with the expectation the win will bring you back to zero lose each time. Is it practical you can win two hands often enough to have a net profit at the end of you day gambling?
Thanks! You may be right about the surrender issue, although it is possible that the surrender may only work if the dealer does NOT have blackjack. I’m not bothering to check because the new version is coming soon anyway, which is a complete rewrite.
Hello,
I think there is one issue in trainer program.
When is using late surrender with the dealer ace trainer first offers surrendering instead of insurance.
And again I continue to win.
May be there is a reason to imitate dealers shuffling, instead of mathematical random shuffling.
Make sure you are including the cards behind the cut card in your unseen decks. In your example, when we are halfway through six decks, that means 3 decks have been dealt, and 3 decks are still unseen. It doesn’t matter that many of the unseen cards will never be used because they are behind the cut card. You still use them in the calculation. So a running count of +20 would convert to a true count of +20/3, or +6.66. With the same true count one deck later (4 decks used, 2 unseen), the true count would by +20/2 = +10.
Ignore any unseen cards. It essentially reduces penetration by one card. The new version of the trainer won’t have this issue. Thanks for reminding me!
The cards are only available in physical form, and I have moved all distribution to Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/dp/0982119178/?tag=theblackjacbasic