Ploppy's getting angry w/ index plays that mess up the "team flow"

This has happened a couple times to me, with no major reprussion. Yet i can tell it was definatly an attention getting (not in the pos way)

TC 6 or 7 (can't remember which, but it called for it...).
I have been playing perfect BS (as the count and hands so far had not warranted an index play yet).
Dealt A/8 vs dealer 6. I double, (which is a only a TC 1 index for me) recieve a 10. Everyone one else at the table has stiffs, besides one guy has a hard 18.
Dealer flips a 2, then draws an Jack.
4 guys lose, 1 guy gets a push, and of course I will w/ a double.

All 4 guys are bitching and moaning that I took the dealer's bust card (which I did), and most of these guys played good BS, and one turns to me and says Hey....it's ok to play things like that if your are playing BY YOURSELF, but you just don't make plays like that when their are other players at the table. It's not being a team player

Without trying to sound snobbish. I say "sorry", and then "try" to explain in a watered down way that the way I play does not affect his outcome. I even gave the example of what if I got a 4, then the dealer recieved two 10's. Then my move would of MADE the dealer bust, and everyone get paid, and I would of been the ultimate team player. He says "but you didn't get a 4"

Ploppies don't seem to understand this concept at all.
It actually happened later in the game, and I tried to point it out.
But the ploppy just then says something like "hey, you got very lucky, I would not try that again!" It's like they are blind to notice when an improper NON BS play is helpfull to them.

It's like trying to explain that the guy at 1st base is JUST as important as the guy at 3rd base, they just "THINK" that 3rd base can more control over the outcome, which is mathmatically un-true.

My question here is this:
- not playing the correct index play is NOT an option.
As quoted on here by another "what do you mean, there are other players at the table???" is a great way to think.

But what COVER do some of you guys use to not upset mr ploppy when you make a play that in an Index (non bs move) that has a "percieved" result that will make it detrimental to their hand?

What lines or saying might one be able to give, instead of the obvious "hey, its my hand and my money buddy, stay in your lane". B/C obviously no one wants to drive all the ploppies away in droves, even tho a one on one game is better, it also is a heat inducer b/c the casino wants ploppies bussiness of course.

The only small tool I have seen work so far, is when it works against me, yet HELPS the ploppy, I make it a point to show that. something like "At least I helped the table out, with the dumb gamble move", but that even half the time get's a minimal response of appreciation.

U can't tell a ploppy that my play does not effect his game. It's just not in their mental capacity to comprehend that. I tried, and it does not work.

Curious what some of your pro's typically reply to this common table player argument.

Ideally, what I want it to appear as is that i do NOT know correct BS, and im just a gambler, and that's how I play. However, when that same play comes up again at a TC of -1, i will stand. I just obviously want to make it look like I just whimsically decide w/o ryhme or reason, with out infruiated the entire table.
Not that i "care" about the table, but I dont want the heat that is associated with them brining it upon me by blantenly pointing out these things.

TIA for any feedback

Always remember that these people are addicts and any attempt at reason is wasted on them. I don't know if you've much experience with practicing alcoholics or drug addicts, but one of the characteristics of an addict is that they are incapable of accepting blame for their own outcomes. There is nothing you can do to convince one of these people that their loss is not your fault.

"Screams from the haters ... got a nice ring to it.
I guess every superhero needs his theme music."
-Kanye West, Power

To be quite honest, some players are simply more sensitive than others. This is not a bad thing, as this same awareness can spark all sorts of interesting insights to the game ... but it can pose a problem when dealing with others.

You basically have two options:

1) Adapt your play to minimize the friction.
2) Thicken your skin a little.

For option 1, you can soften your approach. I've found sitting in the early seats tends to take the focus off my play. Doubling your soft 19 in first base rarely gets a second glance, whereas it's spitting on Christ himself in third base. While cutting in to a table, you can wait for the dealer to hit 20 or 21 then enter the game to "help out". You can adopt a similar ploy when you want to switch to two hands. The idea is basically to give the illusion of playing into the table's psychosis, so as to be a team player.

Truth be told, I haven't met too many successful players that soften their play to appease others ... but you can try it.

Option 2 is much more interesting.

Simply playing your hands while trying to ignore others will not work so well for a sensitive soul. It's like trying to guide a ship without taking into account the crosswind. You'll simply be blown off course. So take a tip from Aristotle and track into the wind. If you want to be successful at this game, you might want to train yourself to be a bit of an asshole.

What does that mean?

Blatantly cut into games when the game is good. Switch from one to two (or more hands) whenever it is correct to do so. Consciously go out of your way to make every optimal play possible that annoys and angers the ploppies. The point here is not to try to ignore the venom, but relish in it. You might even start getting off a little on this, and start berating the ploppies.

Bad form?

Absolutely.

A viable long term strategy?

Doubtful.

However, if you pull this off (and it is difficult, initially), you'll find once the hazing process is over ... you'll rarely have a care for others when you play your hands. Again, it's not necessary to BE an asshole to be successful. I would argue, though, it's a necessary trait. And if you don't have it, you are playing with a handicap.

You might also want to look into a book called "Prometheus Rising". It goes into depth a little more regarding how to balance your personality to be a whole and complete, as opposed to nice and friendly.

Best,
Syph

"Try to be polite"

It happened all the times.. I remember once, a plop who was betting light black got pissed off when i switch to two hands and then to three to break the winning streak. He start bitching: what kind of moron switch hands like this. I simply answered: "I'm sorry". He again said: "fu". I: "Sorry sir". Then again he goes on.. Now my patience have given up considering I'v just lost 3k in last shoe and he was crying over his 1400..

So, I got up and offered him to come out and teach me the lesson hard way.. Ofcourse, he escaped silently...

Thanks you both for that feedback, and everyone on this board for sharing/exchanging info experiences....

Option 2 it is, definatly.

It's not that I am sensitive to mr ploppy. It's that I do not want his loud drunk mouth bringing ADDED heat to my game, by verbally pointing out that I am making such plays. Which in turn get's heard by the pit boss, and therby raises heat. If i made the other players quietly cry, that would be great. As long as they verbally don't make it a "scene" which creates the suits to watch more closely that's all I want and care to avoid.

But as pointed out, he is an addict, and as much as there is this part of me that thinks Since I understand how the game works to a certain degree, and it's not that complex, I should be able to easily convince Mr ploppy of the same. But the deep engrainment of those who say such things as "how is this shoe" "hey, you...wait till the next shoe" or "are you playing 1 hand or 2? you need to decide now and play that the whole game to not mess up the flow"....this engrainment is so deep, that there is no changing it.
-

In regards to option 2, how many of you make an INTENTIONAL early off the bat (minimum wager) statement play?? I'm thinking this will be helpfull, so that when the REAL index play comes, they are already expecting the unexpected so its out there already and the tone is set.

Such as split 5's vrs an A
Double a 16 vs a 5
Stand on 9 against 6
just a totally idiot play..... (for the minimum wager obviously) ....right out the gate, very first hand, and then smile and say, well that wasn't supposed to happen, guess it's gonna be a long day, which let's them know Im here for a lil while too. Hmmmm. They would then i hope think IM THE PLOPPY, the ULTAMATE IDIOT. Plus this get's me good cover, so then they know right then they are playing with what they probably percieve as "the idiot who is about to lose all his money".

I am thinking to add this to my toolbox, (as a way to easier transition into Option 2 above) very first play off the bat every time, very first after I come in. (unless wonging in of course....)T. herefore it should cause much less commotion and attention when I do it again later, when I actually truly NEED too.

Jeez

Just tell them to go f*** themselves, basically. First off, the pit doesnt care about an indice play, most cant count and they would think a play against BS would be something a ploppy would do, not a counter.
If they suspect something about your play, theyll just phone up sureillance, nine out of ten (at least) dont know how to count or do indices. And this would be in Vegas, prob 99 out of a 100 at smaller non NV casinos.
As for the annoying ploppies, just assert yourself. Bullies bully, and if you cave or tolerate their griping, theyll just lean on you more to get what they want, which is for you to play "their" way. Also, by tolerating their comments you are prime to be the table scapegoat, and ironically, they will be making more comments about your play, which is what you dont want.
A firm "PLAY YOUR OWN HAND NOT MINE" stops most of these people right off the bat.
If you cant assert yourself, well then your stuck i guess. Dont be a pussy.

Just tell them flat out. I don't play basic strategy.

MeWin$ has it right.

For you, 65D, I think it would do you a world of good the next time someone comments on your play to simply look them square in the eye and say:

"Shut the fuck up."

Repeat as necessary. Nothing more, nothing less. Don't expect to be perfect on the first try. As you become more comfortable with this, you can soften your approach. But right now, I think we need to break the ice a little.

On occasionally, this will escalate the situation. But this is a good thing. Two assholes screaming at each other to shut the fuck up is about as non-counter as you can get, if that's a concern. By being a nice guy, playing basic strategy (with the occasional deviation), apologizing, and trying not to attract attention ...

You're, like, the easiest mark in the dive.

(ps skip the idiot plays)

JMHO,
Syph

I wouldn't mention basic strategy to them. By merely saying that, that implies that you're familiar with it. Just say I don't go by the book or whatever.

I say let them be angry if they want. Don't try to reason or tell them to shut the F*** up either, it just makes them even more intolerable. If they want to lose money let them, but don't let them make you lose money just because they're mad. Just keep playing and if they get pissed, just say sorry or nothing at all.

Play your way. If they don't like it, they can find another table - which would have been a good +EV move in this case. If you want to get really aggressive, you can let people bribe you to play their way.

Syph

I like All that Syph wrote, give him $100 for POM!:grin:

I like these confrontations,,,sorta live for them, and I will not take sh## from anyone and will never alter my plays for another player.

This is part of the excitment of playing and if you can develope the "look" people will think twice about hassling you.

As to the inviting somebody outside, you better be prepared to go if you say it and not pussy out,,,but overall a bad move that can lead to very bad consequences,,,if need be throw down right at the table and give no warning.

Have fun,
CP

You need to learn to ignore aholes. Doesn't matter if they are at your table or giving 'advice' on forums.
BJ is a team game only when you get to pick the team, otherwise it's everyman for himself.
It's you and a bunch of empty chairs vs the dealer. Anything else is just background noise.

The thought of making bad plays to "set the tone" for civilians of all people makes me physically nauseous! I could almost see making bad plays in front of a sharp boss that is hawking your game (and even then, don't), but please don't give up EV for recreational players that might get on your nerves. Ever.

creeping panther said:

I like All that Syph wrote, give him $100 for POM!:grin:

I like these confrontations,,,sorta live for them, and I will not take sh## from anyone and will never alter my plays for another player.

This is part of the excitment of playing and if you can develope the "look" people will think twice about hassling you.

As to the inviting somebody outside, you better be prepared to go if you say it and not pussy out,,,but overall a bad move that can lead to very bad consequences,,,if need be throw down right at the table and give no warning.

Have fun,
CP

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No, don't challenge anyone to fight. Challenging to fight is illegal in most places even if no punches are ever thrown. You'll not only be banned from the casino, the chances of your bankroll disappearing at the police station (legally or illegally) are much higher than at the table.

Our job is inherently hazardous as we are dealing with addicts, it's like working in a crackhouse in that there are unstable and desperate people in there, and you never know when someone is using the addiction to self-medicate an even worse problem. If you're there to make money, don't screw with people. We have too much to lose. And I'd recommend avoid all social aspects of the gaming table unless you have a +EV reason to do otherwise. It's not a good place to make enemies or friends.

If you're getting abuse at the table and you want to try to talk you way out of it, what I do is just explain that when you put your own money down on the table, you have the right to play your cards any way you want to. Then I'll add is that if he wants my advice, I'll give it, but otherwise I'm not going to tell him what to do and I'd expect the same respect from him. Usually at that point the dealer will take your side. Then if he does ask my advice, I'll give him basic strategy and being that will have the better outcome more often than not, there's a chance he will feel better after winning a few hands he would have lost otherwise and the situation will be defused.

Most of the severe abuse I've received in my part of the US has had a black vs. white subtext. In that case you have to use the appropriate street argot to be assertive but without giving a challenge or a humiliation.

Good: "Hey man you think all white people are afraid of you? Well, I'm not."
(Good because I'm talking about my own race.)

Bad: "I ain't afraid of no black people." (Bad because I'm talking about his race.)

I agree that even acknowledging these idiots is a bad place to start. You have nothing to gain from a confrontation, but you have a fair amount to lose, including arrest if it gets out of hand and even simply flying straight into the casino's radar as a troublemaker that needs to be watched. I once sat at a table with a man that looked directly at me and said, "you know what we have to do with those Muslims? We need to kill all of the ones that are 6 months or older and re-educate the ones that are younger than that." And he went on to support his theory for acceptable genocide as I tried to change the subject in a number of ways, while still letting him know that I thought he was a complete moron. My playing partner could literally see my blood pressure rising, but I reminded myself that this is not the time or place for this kind of confrontation. Luckily, this comment wasn't made in a different public place, where this guy would've heard a whole different "side" to my disagreement.

Lonesome Gambler said:

I agree that even acknowledging these idiots is a bad place to start. You have nothing to gain from a confrontation, but you have a fair amount to lose, including arrest if it gets out of hand and even simply flying straight into the casino's radar as a troublemaker that needs to be watched. I once sat at a table with a man that looked directly at me and said, "you know what we have to do with those Muslims? We need to kill all of the ones that are 6 months or older and re-educate the ones that are younger than that." And he went on to support his theory for acceptable genocide as I tried to change the subject in a number of ways, while still letting him know that I thought he was a complete moron. My playing partner could literally see my blood pressure rising, but I reminded myself that this is not the time or place for this kind of confrontation. Luckily, this comment wasn't made in a different public place, where this guy would've heard a whole different "side" to my disagreement.

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What would you have done, pressed the button on your remote starter? :bomb:

It's OK man, I didn't realize that was you when I said that. I had a rough time at the airport security and was feeling a bit violated, that's all. Hope I didn't distract you from your game. :joker:

Yup

Well said, Auto Monkey.

I would just ignor them. I would never apoligize for my play. I have every right to play anyway I choose, however there is absolutely nothing to be gained be any kind of verbal exchange at the table. It will only draw attention and elevate the situation. There is even less to be gained by some sort of display of manhood with an outside confrontation.

Aside from the normal percentage of the population that is unstable, as Monkey suggusts, many of these people are addicts. Some to more than just gambling.

I had 4 years of korean martial arts training in my early teens, and feel confident in my ability to defend myself, but that training didn't include how to stop a bullet or even a baseball bat to back of the head that I wasn't expecting. You might think I am talking extremes here, but its not that far fetched. You get some unstable person that just lost their rent money and blame you for it because you split 10's. Add in a verbal debate, where they feel you are talking down to them and disrespecting them and just see what they are capable of. The casino's generally attract and actually caters to the lower end of the spectrum here. Even if this type of extreme situation didn't occur, what benefit is it for me to step outside, usually carrying a substanial amount of funds to fight some tattooed moron that thinks standing on a soft 17 is a good idea. :laugh: And I haven't even discussed the possibilty of being arrested or detained for fighting. Now I have to explain to the police why I am carrying a large sum of money? That's if I am lucky enough that the police don't steal it from me. No Thanks. It's best not to put yourself in that situation. The risk far outweights the reward.

Sometimes you ignore it, sometimes you tell them to **** off. I will say, if you plan on getting nasty, get real nasty real quick, and let them know it's time for them to shut their ****ing mouth and mind their own business. I rarely go off on people, but when I do, they know it's time to shut their mouths.