Ploppy's getting angry w/ index plays that mess up the "team flow"

[Preston]

I simply say "Blackjack isn't a team sport" and leave it at that. A lot of times the ploppies then start having a discussion amongst themselves about 'us vs them' and let them be distracted by the conversation. I'm generally pretty quiet.

My home casino I know most of the staff, and while I'm not a 'high-roller' I am a regular customer who has a fairly established bankroll. And I put in 2-3 nights a week and know a lot of the regulars too. I do tip and I do take care of those around me.

Last night I was playing $25 DD, next table over we $5 8d. There was a ploppy at third base actually yelling every hand and 'coaching' and saying things like "even if I go broke at least I do it playing smart." and started talking about "tens come out in pairs" and "don't mess up the cards" crap. Originally I ignored it for about 30 mins. Then I saw my wife sit down at his table (my wife isn't an AP, but is familiar with what I do). I called the pitboss over and said "Can you please tell MIT over there that he either needs to stand up, shut up, or I'm going to kick the stupid out of him!" The pit boss went right over and asked the guy to tone it down a bit.

I played and made a little bit of money (it had been a rough session to this point, as my first 5 hands had been dealer blackjacks and it was shaky from there.) I could tell my wife was getting really annoyed.

So I stood behind her and coached her with a betting spread and index plays... enough that he really was getting pissed off. I had her split 10's, double a soft 19, and -- the one that put him over the edge -- surrender in a + count with 16. The table actually applauded when he walked away. It was kind of nice.

I've had a number of confrontations over the years but generally I don't get in their face about it. I just stick to my game and if they want to move they are free too. Normally they go broke... especially when I drop from 2 hands to 1 when the count goes negative... and they steam bet an extra hand to replace the one I wasn't playing. But it does help I am well known enough with the staff that if something is bothering me they will try to accomodate it.

Of course, there have been a few times where I just let loose on a player (verbally) which has resulted in *MY* ejection so I would rather just stick to my game. But that wasn't at anyplace local. Last place with Atlantic City Hilton in 2007.

 

[Syph]

Thanks for the kind words, Panther.

I'll stand by my views encouraging those who are incapable of being abusive pricks to develop that capacity. Many people, of course, have this quality naturally and endeavor, over time, to mature and conduct themselves with more respect towards others. So, for them, this advice would appear somewhat juvenile.

The advice is not for them.

Albert Camus once wrote that there were two main types of people in the world, victims and pestilences. There was a third (healers), but their numbers were small. When I mentioned this, someone piped up that it sounded suspiciously similar to the speech from Team America:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8pAaT4unZc

I had to laugh, I think an animated puppet musical expressed it better than a French existentialist.

Go figure.

Best,
Syph

(ps Incidentally, Preston, you're clearly a dick. Well done.)

 

[Automatic Monkey]

...Last night I was playing $25 DD, next table over we $5 8d. There was a ploppy at third base actually yelling every hand and 'coaching' and saying things like "even if I go broke at least I do it playing smart." and started talking about "tens come out in pairs" and "don't mess up the cards" crap. Originally I ignored it for about 30 mins. Then I saw my wife sit down at his table (my wife isn't an AP, but is familiar with what I do). I called the pitboss over and said "Can you please tell MIT over there that he either needs to stand up, shut up, or I'm going to kick the stupid out of him!" The pit boss went right over and asked the guy to tone it down a bit...

Maybe I can talk the stupid out of you... what was the EV of listening to him yell? It's insulting, it's distracting, you wife could become involved, but being you're an AP you can take any kind of verbal abuse and limited physical abuse without it causing you to lose a penny. We are the mental giants in these places. I have to disagree with Syph; never return abuse just for your own gratification, you need to have some kind of valid reason for doing so. Cover is an acceptable reason, but any kind of cover can easily get out of hand if not used judiciously.

What is the EV of issuing a threat? You could be banned from the store and lose untold opportunity. You could have to fight, get your money or chips knocked around and not retrieve it all. You could get arrested, and need an attorney or have the cops confiscate/rob your money. You could have to leave in an ambulance, and be robbed by the EMT's or hospital staff as they remove the knife. All of these things can happen even if you win the fight. It's not a question of how tough or brave you are, you just really need to have a one-track mind when you're in the casino, and that's "get the money," and for God's sake don't do anything to increase your chances of losing it! Understandable that you would react if you thought your wife was going to be verbally assaulted by this idiot, but it might be better to keep her out of situations in the first place where you have to worry about her while your working, no?

 

[kewljason]

Maybe I can talk the stupid out of you... what was the EV of listening to him yell? It's insulting, it's distracting, you wife could become involved, but being you're an AP you can take any kind of verbal abuse and limited physical abuse without it causing you to lose a penny. We are the mental giants in these places. I have to disagree with Syph; never return abuse just for your own gratification, you need to have some kind of valid reason for doing so. Cover is an acceptable reason, but any kind of cover can easily get out of hand if not used judiciously.

What is the EV of issuing a threat? You could be banned from the store and lose untold opportunity. You could have to fight, get your money or chips knocked around and not retrieve it all. You could get arrested, and need an attorney or have the cops confiscate/rob your money. You could have to leave in an ambulance, and be robbed by the EMT's or hospital staff as they remove the knife. All of these things can happen even if you win the fight. It's not a question of how tough or brave you are, you just really need to have a one-track mind when you're in the casino, and that's "get the money," and for God's sake don't do anything to increase your chances of losing it! Understandable that you would react if you thought your wife was going to be verbally assaulted by this idiot, but it might be better to keep her out of situations in the first place where you have to worry about her while your working, no?

Great advise from a smart monkey. He really is brilliant when he stays on the topic of blackjack and/or advantage play.

It's really just a matter of being professional, disciplined and staying focused on what you are there for. If you take the emotions out of every situation and just weigh risk vs reward for every action and reaction, most decisions and paths become crystal clear. It is emotions that fogs everything up.

If you are a person that likes to throw down and prove your manhood (or womanhood) at the drop of a hat every time someone does or says something you perceive as disrespectful, then set a side a time and place for that, like a bar. For me there is far too much to lose to have this attitude in the casino. (bankroll, cover, opportunity to continue to play a favorable location....did I mention bankroll) The risks far outweighs the rewards.

 

[southAP]

Jeff Ma did a seminar for google/you tube it had a small segment on how to ignore the emotions of trying to please the other players at the table when making index plays. His example was splitting tens. He made a really good point on how to deal with that and the people around you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMxnxifmsuw

 

[sagefr0g]

,,,if need be throw down right at the table and give no warning.

Have fun,
CP

exactly! no warning, and also best no possible way of even knowing the source of the throw down.
best way is just let nature take it's course in these matters, whatever, me, well my throw down days are over, at least i hope they are, if they aren't i'm gonna do everything to make sure i'm on the right side of the law.

 

[creeping panther]

Monkey

You make very valid points,,but in the end it depends on how you are wired and your experiences growing up.

Some,, who do not depend on the game for their living,,, don't have to eat S##t while others that do have to eat it, not you in particular, and not me for certain. Clearly not Syph and for that he has my deep respect.

In the end just do what you must do. :grin:

CP

 

[creeping panther]

Sage

exactly! no warning, and also best no possible way of even knowing the source of the throw down.
best way is just let nature take it's course in these matters, whatever, me, well my throw down days are over, at least i hope they are, if they aren't i'm gonna do everything to make sure i'm on the right side of the law.

Right on BJ BRO':grin:

But let us all hope the casino stops the situation before it reaches the danger point.

Your Friend,
CP

 

[sagefr0g]

so many things, so many things.........

Right on BJ BRO':grin:

But let us all hope the casino stops the situation before it get to the danger point.

Your Friend,
CP

yes they should stealthy won, and we know how they can pussy foot around about such (probably legal) obligations, don't we? example being that drunk at the bash that wanted to bet your chips, lol...
here's a short story witnessed by Y, a few nights ago:
http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showpost.php?p=193642&postcount=92

 

[creeping panther]

Wise Won

yes they should stealthy won, and we know how they can pussy foot around about such (probably legal) obligations, don't we? example being that drunk at the bash that wanted to bet your chips, lol...
here's a short story witnessed by Y, a few nights ago:
http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showpost.php?p=193642&postcount=92

Very strange, their security there is somewhat lacking, wonder how long it would take them to find someb...................well ya the drunk,,,musta played where you can backline,,,he did compliment me on my dress shirt,,,so I put up with him till he grabbed a chip:whip:,,,plus he was drunk:laugh:

That is a nasty fight there Sage,,,that is what I call outa control,,,glad you were not involved or Y,,,you stay safe Bro' and Sistah'

Friend,
CP

 

[BJgenius007]

This has happened a couple times to me, with no major reprussion. Yet i can tell it was definatly an attention getting (not in the pos way)

TC 6 or 7 (can't remember which, but it called for it...).
I have been playing perfect BS (as the count and hands so far had not warranted an index play yet).
Dealt A/8 vs dealer 6. I double, (which is a only a TC 1 index for me) recieve a 10. Everyone one else at the table has stiffs, besides one guy has a hard 18.
Dealer flips a 2, then draws an Jack.
4 guys lose, 1 guy gets a push, and of course I will w/ a double.

All 4 guys are bitching and moaning that I took the dealer's bust card (which I did), and most of these guys played good BS, and one turns to me and says Hey....it's ok to play things like that if your are playing BY YOURSELF, but you just don't make plays like that when their are other players at the table. It's not being a team player

Without trying to sound snobbish. I say "sorry", and then "try" to explain in a watered down way that the way I play does not affect his outcome. I even gave the example of what if I got a 4, then the dealer recieved two 10's. Then my move would of MADE the dealer bust, and everyone get paid, and I would of been the ultimate team player. He says "but you didn't get a 4"

Ploppies don't seem to understand this concept at all.
It actually happened later in the game, and I tried to point it out.
But the ploppy just then says something like "hey, you got very lucky, I would not try that again!" It's like they are blind to notice when an improper NON BS play is helpfull to them.

It's like trying to explain that the guy at 1st base is JUST as important as the guy at 3rd base, they just "THINK" that 3rd base can more control over the outcome, which is mathmatically un-true.

My question here is this:
- not playing the correct index play is NOT an option.
As quoted on here by another "what do you mean, there are other players at the table???" is a great way to think.

But what COVER do some of you guys use to not upset mr ploppy when you make a play that in an Index (non bs move) that has a "percieved" result that will make it detrimental to their hand?

What lines or saying might one be able to give, instead of the obvious "hey, its my hand and my money buddy, stay in your lane". B/C obviously no one wants to drive all the ploppies away in droves, even tho a one on one game is better, it also is a heat inducer b/c the casino wants ploppies bussiness of course.

The only small tool I have seen work so far, is when it works against me, yet HELPS the ploppy, I make it a point to show that. something like "At least I helped the table out, with the dumb gamble move", but that even half the time get's a minimal response of appreciation.

U can't tell a ploppy that my play does not effect his game. It's just not in their mental capacity to comprehend that. I tried, and it does not work.

Curious what some of your pro's typically reply to this common table player argument.

Ideally, what I want it to appear as is that i do NOT know correct BS, and im just a gambler, and that's how I play. However, when that same play comes up again at a TC of -1, i will stand. I just obviously want to make it look like I just whimsically decide w/o ryhme or reason, with out infruiated the entire table.
Not that i "care" about the table, but I dont want the heat that is associated with them brining it upon me by blantenly pointing out these things.

TIA for any feedback

This is not the worst ploppy in the table. I have been this guy's table three times. Now I am avoiding to be in the same table with him. He plays OK, almost perfectly BS, but he verbally abuses the dealer and pit boss, because he mixes with sense of humor sometimes, no one knows if he is serious. Worse of all, he is also very hostile against who are winning. So I am his primary target most of the times. Normally he will say something like, I don't see you have any fun. You are so serious. Are you a counter? You won all our money. Last time I didn't talk to him, he said, "Wow, look at our counter. He is so concentrating on counting." Anyone has a good solution just in case he comes to my table next time?

 

[southAP]

This is not the worst ploppy in the table. I have been this guy's table three times. Now I am avoiding to be in the same table with him. He plays OK, almost perfectly BS, but he verbally abuses the dealer and pit boss, because he mixes with sense of humor sometimes, no one knows if he is serious. Worse of all, he is also very hostile against who are winning. So I am his primary target most of the times. Normally he will say something like, I don't see you have any fun. You are so serious. Are you a counter? You won all our money. Last time I didn't talk to him, he said, "Wow, look at our counter. He is so concentrating on counting." Anyone has a good solution just in case he comes to my table next time?

I'm usually pretty talkative at the tables to make it seem like im not concentrating on the cards. I was called out as a counter once in Borgata, the exact 3 line conversation was, him "man looking at you racking up all that green!!!(as in chips), you must be seeing some good counts at this table!!" i only took a second to come back with a retort of "dont you know its impossible to count a 6 deck shoe?" he sits for a min mulling it over while actually stopping table play and then responds "dude, your abslutely right, you would have to be a math genius working at like NASA"

So my answer would be retort to whoever tried to call you out with casino myths and superstition.

 

[Syph]

"Kill the sheep, or drive them off. It's humiliating to live with them."
-Unknown

AM and KJ are coming from a somewhat different place than I am. It's valid, and correct for many ... however I don't think it's the best approach to take for 65D. Read 65D's initial post, and his follow up. Ask yourself where this man is coming from? What is prompting his actions? And what's guiding his conduct?

Uncertainty.
Placation.
Fear.

Now, ask yourself how many have succeeded with such a foundation?

You can overlay whatever strategy you wish, and you might even come up with some novell approaches ... but anything you build, or create under such conditions will be rooted in jello. You can't rationalize away an emotional attachment that places a higher value on the conduct of others before your own. It's like telling someone not to think of a pink elephant. It's already occurred. You're too late. You're game is tainted.

It's a problem with many of the great faiths. They offer guidelines to follow, but offer no methods of extinguishing the passions that give rise to the conduct they wish to control.

But one solution is simply to accept the human condition as it is. To acknowledge that we care very little for that which we step on, but have all sorts of thoughts regarding that which steps on us. So I suggest stomping out of the gate. And with fire. Let the chips fall where they may. Then, when the dust clears, and the ploppies have fallen ... let them balance the risk and reward of their conduct.

Yes, there may be a trail of carnage, but you'll sleep well. And your game will be rock solid. It's less about ego, and more about making a few blood sacrifices to ensure your game is never tainted by the heathens.

Nor you.

Best,
Syph

 

[aslan]

There have been a lot of different perspectives here, some I agree with more than others. Personally, I think the main thing is to not let any of these situations keep you from playing your cards the way you want to.

If someone points out that I made a stupid play, I just pick from the many possible replies that I think best fits the situation. The point is, you're not there to fight, be cool, impress, look intelligent, defend your pride, whatever---you're there to win money and a happy light-hearted table without distractions or heavy emotions is conducive to good play. Just keep it low key, make the right plays, and rake in the cash.

There are dozens of things you can say when you are called down. You never have to attract heat, or be defensive, or get your hackles up. Don't forget, you are always play-acting. You are pretending that you are not counting, for one thing. On top of that, most of you have some kind of act. I play the fun loving, happy-go-lucky, talkative ploppy with some decent, but not perfect, basic strategy play. Sometimes I act a little drunk. Sometimes I act confused. Sometimes I act like I'm chasing my money (like when I want to spread higher in a plus count). Sometimes I have to ask the dealer or the other players what the right thing to do is. Whatever I do, it is all an act designed to let me play the way I want to play. Don't forget, if you are acting, it's all right to avoid the confrontation. It's not YOU, the person is insulting, it's the character you're playing. If it's all an act, why let yourself get upset.

Here's some of the replies I might use:

That's the way I always play it.
I thought I read that in a book somewhere.
I had a hunch.
Sometimes I play it this way, sometimes I play it the way you say.
If I could predict what the next card was, I would own this place.
I thought it was a good move at the time.
Yeah, I guess I made a stupid play.
What does the book say?
Last time I did what you said, I busted.
It worked last time I did it.
I was trying to get lucky.
I'm not a very good player.
I do it different every other time.
I always play it that way; at least I'm consistent.
If I knew how to play this game, I wouldn't be losing so much.
Where can I learn the right way to play?
I thought I had 15.
I didn't realize the dealer had a ten.
I don't know what I was thinking.
Tell me next time I start to do that.
I was trying to change the flow of cards.
I'm sorry. I don't play so good.

And who cares if a player or two leaves the table. That rarely happens to me, but if it does, I like fewer player better anyway. None of the things I say are confrontational. They may make me look stupid or foolish, but isn't that what you want the house to think. If you want them to think you are a smart card player, possibly a card counter, then I think you have a funny way of approaching advantage play. I always thought the idea was to keep the house from suspecting you.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

There have been a lot of different perspectives here, some I agree with more than others. Personally, I think the main thing is to not let any of these situations keep you from playing your cards the way you want to.

If someone points out that I made a stupid play, I just pick from the many possible replies that I think best fits the situation. The point is, you're not there to fight, be cool, impress, look intelligent, defend your pride, whatever---you're there to win money and a happy light-hearted table without distractions or heavy emotions is conducive to good play. Just keep it low key, make the right plays, and rake in the cash.

There are dozens of things you can say when you are called down. You never have to attract heat, or be defensive, or get your hackles up. Don't forget, you are always play-acting. You are pretending that you are not counting, for one thing. On top of that, most of you have some kind of act. I play the fun loving, happy-go-lucky, talkative ploppy with some decent, but not perfect, basic strategy play. Sometimes I act a little drunk. Sometimes I act confused. Sometimes I act like I'm chasing my money (like when I want to spread higher in a plus count). Sometimes I have to ask the dealer or the other players what the right thing to do is. Whatever I do, it is all an act designed to let me play the way I want to play. Don't forget, if you are acting, it's all right to avoid the confrontation. It's not YOU, the person is insulting, it's the character you're playing. If it's all an act, why let yourself get upset.

Here's some of the replies I might use:

That's the way I always play it.
I thought I read that in a book somewhere.
I had a hunch.
Sometimes I play it this way, sometimes I play it the way you say.
If I could predict what the next card was, I would own this place.
I thought it was a good move at the time.
Yeah, I guess I made a stupid play.
What does the book say?
Last time I did what you said, I busted.
It worked last time I did it.
I was trying to get lucky.
I'm not a very good player.
I do it different every other time.
I always play it that way; at least I'm consistent.
If I knew how to play this game, I wouldn't be losing so much.
Where can I learn the right way to play?
I thought I had 15.
I didn't realize the dealer had a ten.
I don't know what I was thinking.
Tell me next time I start to do that.
I was trying to change the flow of cards.
I'm sorry. I don't play so good.

And who cares if a player or two leaves the table. That rarely happens to me, but if it does, I like fewer player better anyway. None of the things I say are confrontational. They may make me look stupid or foolish, but isn't that what you want the house to think. If you want them to think you are a smart card player, possibly a card counter, then I think you have a funny way of approaching advantage play. I always thought the idea was to keep the house from suspecting you.

There we go! If we had a POM, this should be it. :1st:

So what if you're a proud, tough fighting man in the real world? At the table we pretend to be all kinds of things that we're not. Mostly, a loser. A drunk, a compulsive gambler. All these people you encounter, you're at the top of the food chain and they're at the bottom, with the casino in the middle, and you can't ever let anyone know that, but you can't ever forget that.

If somebody at the table comes over and punches me in the face because I just split 10's and "took the dealer's bust card," I'm not sure what I'd do, but for sure if the count was good enough to split 10's whatever I do is going to wait until the shuffle! :eyepatch:

 

[PierceNation]

'Shut the **** up you idiot, when YOU have the ability to see into the future, gimme the freakin lottery numbers, Asshole'

Hasnt failed me yet

 

[Syph]

'Shut the **** up you idiot, when YOU have the ability to see into the future, gimme the freakin lottery numbers, Asshole'

Hasnt failed me yet

I'm rather partial to this one.

And I'm willing to bet, Peirce, that others don't really factor into your game much, few interfere, and that you don't feel compelled to come up with a list of excuses for your play.

No matter, 65D has received ample feedback. And I'm pretty certain he'll take a softer, respectful approach towards others. It's a more natural, intuitive path for a nice guy. And on that note, all nice guys are hereby ordered to read Chapter 4 of Prometheus Rising. That's your homework. It should put this entire discussion into context.

Here's a link:

http://www.rawilsonfans.com/downloads/prometheus.pdf (Archive copy)

All the best,
Syph

 

[creeping panther]

There we go! If we had a POM, this should be it. :1st:

So what if you're a proud, tough fighting man in the real world? At the table we pretend to be all kinds of things that we're not. Mostly, a loser. A drunk, a compulsive gambler. All these people you encounter, you're at the top of the food chain and they're at the bottom, with the casino in the middle, and you can't ever let anyone know that, but you can't ever forget that.

If somebody at the table comes over and punches me in the face because I just split 10's and "took the dealer's bust card," I'm not sure what I'd do, but for sure if the count was good enough to split 10's whatever I do is going to wait until the shuffle! :eyepatch:

Next month, Syph already has it, POM, for August.

CP

 

[65D]

earplugs

Played this weekend, and I simply ignored it as background noise


**Thank you for the various feedbacks provided by several up here to me, especially syph, your like the Phil Jackson of this board or something? - it's a referance to a great coach, if you were oblivious to a sports referance**

My personality is NOT abrasive (as syph identified fairly quickly), hence the "shut the f*** up" is not my inate reflexive first reaction phrase.
However my personality is addmitely arrogant, so I simply over-exuded that as part of the reply for mr angry ploppy.

My problem was that it annoyed me that these idiots can not understand there is no "flow", and I had initially actually attempted to EXPLAIN that.
- problem 1 with that----they are addicts and wont get it
- problem 2 with that----I appear as an "expert" which is super ANTI-COVER
- problem 3 with that---I had an annoyance with something i can NOT control.

So this weekend:

When gasps were made, or heads shaken, and groans made I simply grinned, smurked, with an occasionally arrogant small laugh, and looked over to the person w/ eye contact and smiled and nodded. However, I restricted myself from making ANY verbal reply, be it and explination or a retaliation. As it might of worked or not, it was not even worth the breath to try this to me. I simply had promised myself that I would not reply. Yet 2 mins later, if the same person asks me what I do for a living, I was as freindly and talkative as could be. This worked well, as not only did it set the tone much better, it also had a couple LEAVE the table.

A great example that I want to share, was this one guy who did make it a point to get my attention, and said to me "you either play one hand or two the whole shoe...no changing". I looked at him and smiled and nodded and said nothing. He might of thought that meant OK. lol. Well that shoe proceeded to flip back and forth from TC1 to TC 2 almost every single hand, so I was changing from 1 hand to 2 several times. The guy slams down his chips, gets colored up and leaves. Then the count proceeds to TC4 and I catch a huge POS variance swing.

Again, thanks for the feedback. I talk to ploppy and dealer, but when ploppy talks about how I play, i simply did not even acknowledge words were spoken, and I smiled and grinned. I figure if there is no interaction, there is no issue.

Watched the Jeff Ma video, was very good. thanks for the link.
And I will be ordering that book, b/c you have me curious.

 

[65D]

BJGenuius

I have had that almost identicle remark made to me.
The statement made to me was something like "I see that every time you bet big, all the high cards come out, you must know something that other players don't"
- I was caught gaurd w/o an innate reflex answer.
I said something along the lines of "well I like to gamble, and I figure if i always bet the same amount, it's not as fun, I don't get as much of a rush, but also though if i bet alot every hand, then I might lose all my money to fast and I cant gamble for as long as I want to"
- it worked at that time.....

But I was also a poor counter at the time. As in I could not carry on an honest conversation and look someone face to face and "appear" to not really look at the cards on the table more than any other player....
....NOW I can do that, and if that question or statement does arise I think I will use the reply by SouthAP in this thread about the "don't you know it's impossible to count cards in 6 decks" and I will probably add an arrogant twist to it, with something along the lines of "if you knew anything about blackjack, you would of already known that"