strategy trainer game on main page

does anyone use the strategy trainer for practice. wondering if it is legit. I've used it for years, but lately have kept track of wins and losses similar to my real play records. after 1200 shoes (12-1 spread wonging out neg counts) I am down over 1000 units. (seems alot like my actual casino play recently :laugh: ) could be just a very neg flux. not really important. still good practice. just seems the dealer gets 3 times as many BJ's and rarely breaks.

kewljason said:

does anyone use the strategy trainer for practice. wondering if it is legit. I've used it for years, but lately have kept track of wins and losses similar to my real play records. after 1200 shoes (12-1 spread wonging out neg counts) I am down over 1000 units. (seems alot like my actual casino play recently :laugh: ) could be just a very neg flux. not really important. still good practice. just seems the dealer gets 3 times as many BJ's and rarely breaks.

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well you could use a spread sheet similar to Kasi's.
http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showpost.php?p=82245&postcount=12
you'd need a sim so you could set up all the needed parameters. i'm not sure what all tc frequencies, standard deviations at a given tc ect.
thing is to have the parameters of the spread sheet fit the strategy trainer parameters and sim parameters. then you could check the validity of the trainer. perhaps Kasi can give you some tips.
in all likelyhood the trainer is legit. but it would be interesting to test it against a spreadsheet like Kasi's

Why would it not be?

I'm sure the BS Trainer is legit, but it can be cruel. Heck, I even wrote my own BJ program, and it's cruel!

kewljason said:

does anyone use the strategy trainer for practice. wondering if it is legit. I've used it for years, but lately have kept track of wins and losses similar to my real play records. after 1200 shoes (12-1 spread wonging out neg counts) I am down over 1000 units. (seems alot like my actual casino play recently :laugh: ) could be just a very neg flux. not really important. still good practice. just seems the dealer gets 3 times as many BJ's and rarely breaks.

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I'm glad you made me play the BS trainer here.

As The Wise Frog suggested, if you get a little more specific as to what counting system you are using, whether you are using indexes or not, what game you have been playing dealt to what pen, at what specific TC's your 12-1 spread occurs and when you wongout (do you always play entire shoe or force a re-shuffle at a certain point since it's very negative), or maybe know how many hands you actually played in those 1200 shoes, then the thing to do would be run a sim for that and compare your results to that.

All that suggests you've actually played the 1200 shoes in a consistent manner. If you've steamed a few times and maybe made a huge bet now and again, that's totally different.

Are you really also playing for real also wondering if your results is a more or less normal flux or one that is perhaps a "very neg flux" while at the same time suggesting/saying that such a question of being down 1000 units over what appears to be a substantial number of hands, either seen or played since you are wonging, is somehow "not really important"?

Why would you think the BS trainer here is not legit if it mimics so well your "real" records?

What, may I ask, in your opinion, and when, perhaps maybe even some time prior to losing 1000 units, would be a more important question in your mind to ask?

I know I'm a goofball but that is, fundamentally, the ONLY question I would want to know, at least to some degree anyway, while wagering real money, let alone fake money.

I'm just guessing here, but is there any chance at all you've ever known, approximately, what to expect from this 12-1 spread in real life or otherwise like on the BS trainer here?

I have no reason to believe Ken's game is not randomly dealt, the more so since I think he maybe found a small bug in it years ago and let everyone know.

If you have even the slightest legit reason to possibly assume, or even suggest, in any way, shape or form whatsoever, that his BS trainer here is somehow not "legit", I'm sure he'd welcome the input.

Play a few thousand hands with the BS trainer here with either the sim of your choice or the one suggested in "Weekend Warriors" thread if that seems appropriate and at least have something to measure against before another 1200 shoes go by. You obviously like to keep track of things for which I give you full credit. I think you'll like the next step of knowing where you stand at any point in time.

sorry Kasi, I wasnt that specif because I didnt intend for anyone to run a sim. I know what my results Should be as this is pretty much my same style of play in actual casinos. when I said these negative results resembled my actual play of late, I was making a joke, hence the laughing face. I play roughly 2000 shoes per year (600-700 hours, I count shoes though) and certainly wouldn't continue to play year after year if my actual results resembled these. When I said it didn't matter, I meant even if the results aren't legit or random (and I didn't say that was the case) that playing the strategy trainer was still good practice. I was just looking for others experiences playing it and imput. since you asked I play RPC betting 1 unit @ <2, 2 units @ 2, 3 units @ 3, 4 units @ 4, 6 units @ 5, 8 units @ 7 and 12 units @ 10. wonging out and starting new game @ true counts of -2 I rarely steam when playing for actual money and certainly don't steam when playing for play money. thats silly! thanx again for you input.

Here's some useless, short-term, anecdotal info:

Some time ago I played a bunch of DD against the BS Trainer. After 2759 hands, I was up 288 units.

Kasi said:

.......Play a few thousand hands with the BS trainer here with either the sim of your choice or the one suggested in "Weekend Warriors" thread if that seems appropriate and at least have something to measure against before another 1200 shoes go by. You obviously like to keep track of things for which I give you full credit. I think you'll like the next step of knowing where you stand at any point in time.

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you forgot to ask kewljason to post his results in the "Weekend Warriors" thread. lol we need to get in all the hands we can. :eyepatch:

kewljason said:

sorry Kasi, I wasnt that specif because I didnt intend for anyone to run a sim.

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And my apologies to you lol. The later it gets the more I rant and rave. I know you weren't really suggesting in any serious way there's something wrong with the BS trainer. And I'm glad your recent (missed that "recent" point before lol) real results are of no real concern to you. All as it should be.

Just curious, and I can see why maybe not bother with sims for the BS trainer, but may I ask if you ever have run sims for your real money?

Anyway, I think I'll use the BS trainer here for playing hands in the weekend warrior thread. If I lose alot of money clearly it's not legit

my update strategy trainer results

since I started this thread last week, I have played an additional 300 shoes on the strategy trainer and lost an additional 325 units. total 1500 shoes played and lost 1331 units. thank god this isnt the real world where my BR is roughly 1200 units! :laugh: I have kept more detailed results over these last 300 shoes. Hands played 7218. My blackjacks 181 or 2.5%, roughly half of the expected 4.8%. dealer blackjacks 635 or 8.8%, significantly higher than the expected 4.8%. Dealer broke 916 or 12.7% significantly less than the expected roughly 28%. I realize these are a tiny sample and probably due to very badfluctuation. I am in no way suggesting the strategy trainer isn't random, however, it is enough info for me to just use the starty trainer for practicing my counting and stop using the results as a simulation. would love to hear others thoughts and experiences.

kewljason said:

does anyone use the strategy trainer for practice. wondering if it is legit. I've used it for years, but lately have kept track of wins and losses similar to my real play records. after 1200 shoes (12-1 spread wonging out neg counts) I am down over 1000 units. (seems alot like my actual casino play recently :laugh: ) could be just a very neg flux. not really important. still good practice. just seems the dealer gets 3 times as many BJ's and rarely breaks.

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Welcome to the real world of BJ.

kewljason said:

since I started this thread last week, I have played an additional 300 shoes on the strategy trainer and lost an additional 325 units. total 1500 shoes played and lost 1331 units... I have kept more detailed results over these last 300 shoes. Hands played 7218. My blackjacks 181 or 2.5%, roughly half of the expected 4.8%. dealer blackjacks 635 or 8.8%, significantly higher than the expected 4.8%. Dealer broke 916 or 12.7% significantly less than the expected roughly 28%. I realize these are a tiny sample and probably due to very badfluctuation. I am in no way suggesting the strategy trainer isn't random, however, it is enough info for me to just use the starty trainer for practicing my counting and stop using the results as a simulation. would love to hear others thoughts and experiences.

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See, now you're really messing me up . Haven't tried to figure anything out but such results, no math here lol, sound, like you say, at the least, due to "very bad flux" and maybe then some.


I just don't see the point of using the BJ trainer for practicing counting and at the same time not being able to relate the results to anything at all.

How will u ever know if you are a crappy counter or it's a fixed game?

Are your results 1 in 100 likley or 1 in a million likely?

Perhaps all the more reason to run a sim so you have something to measure by, especially assuming you have been trying to bet consistently using a system, like the RPC ramp you mentioned, etc.

If playing heads up, the dealer may not break as often since he won't complete a hand after you have busted but he would bust more often if he had to complete hand regardless. Not sure, but I think that's what the 28% bust rate is based on.

As for number of BJ's, I suppose that could vary a little depending on whether you play all ahnds or not but it sounds a little extreme to me. Although I guess maybe not if you double the hands to 14436 and 816 BJ's in total.

kewljason said:

My blackjacks 181 ... dealer blackjacks 635

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I've decided that you getting 181 or fewer BJ's out of 816 is basically an impossibility.

But I'm probably wrong lol.

Any thoughts welcome.

I get one in 21 billion chance to get only 181 blackjacks in 7281 hands. Sigh. Does anyone else want to track a few shoes? I have no reason to believe the game isn't random based on the source code. I'm just using the random number generator built into ActionScript, but it can't be THAT bad. I don't believe these sample numbers.

KenSmith said:

Does anyone else want to track a few shoes?

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A few Weekend Warriors perhaps?

-Sonny-

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenSmith
Does anyone else want to track a few shoes?

Click to expand...

Sonny said:

A few Weekend Warriors perhaps?

-Sonny-

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that sounds like a call to arms to me!

warriors what say ye?

I just ran through 3 six-deck shoes, standing on every two card hand to make it quicker.

My results in 162 hands:
Player blackjacks 9
Dealer blackjacks 6

Expected blackjacks each: 7.69

Chi-Square probability that the player result would be this far off or more in a random game: 62.9%.

Chi-Square probability that the dealer result would this far off or more in a random game: 53.2%

While this is a pittance of data, I don't have the patience for a longer wild goose chase.

Weekend Warriors heed the call!

I'm sure it's fine.

Just played five 6D shoes. Of the 243 hands, some of which were due to splits, but not many:

Dealer BJs: 11
Player BJs: 8

And I won $190 flat-betting $10!

rescue warrior

ok i had 100 hands.....
i only got 2 blackjacks
dealer got 10 blackjacks :flame:
oh and i lost a thousand bucks and had to dip in and get another so i'm down $949.00 :cry:

edit: ok i now played a total of 392 hands dealer bj's = 24 player bj's 15

sagefr0g said:

ok i had 100 hands.....
i only got 2 blackjacks
dealer got 10 blackjacks :flame:
oh and i lost a thousand bucks and had to dip in and get another so i'm down $949.00 :cry:

edit: ok i now played a total of 392 hands dealer bj's = 24 player bj's 15

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147 more hands.... player 9 bj's dealer 4 bj's

so total 539 hands dealer 28 bj's player 24 bj's
doo dahh

KenSmith said:

I get one in 21 billion chance to get only 181 blackjacks in 7281 hands. Sigh. Does anyone else want to track a few shoes? I have no reason to believe the game isn't random based on the source code. I'm just using the random number generator built into ActionScript, but it can't be THAT bad. I don't believe these sample numbers.

Click to expand...

Thanks for your input Ken.

I think I was doing it a different way than you and was wondering if there was anything wrong, or if you could comment on, my method in assuming that dealer and player BJ's would be equally likely and doing something like .5^816* the sum of combin(816,0) thru combin (816,181)?

Although, even if legit method, I guess it would be 181 or fewer BJ's. I think I was getting some number with 200+ zeroes lol.

What would be the chances of the dealer getting his 635 BJ's in his 7218 hands the way you are doing it?

Could only playing +counts as I think kewlajckson did perhaps be a factor? Or including splits as a "hand"? Or perhaps only counting only winning BJ's?

And how weird perhaps the 2 put together isn't that bad?

Like you, I thought it likley it maybe must be way off data but then I wondered how bad a guy would have to be counting hands and BJ's to have some reasonable result?

Neither here nor there but years back did you find some obscure error in something I think in a play-for-fun BJ game here? Just wondering how senile I'm getting lol. Probably not this game anyway. Anyway, if so, the open way you approached it was pretty cool and only added to your integrity in my view.

I guess it would be too hard to just make the trainer-guy count all the BJ's for you in some secret file just for you?

Anyway, as a soon-to-be weekend warrior, no problem to keep track of BJ's lol. Eventually I'll have a few thousand hands lol.

I just liked kewl's post in that it it possibly highlighted the process and value of comparing results to something as opposed to calling everything just bad luck or really bad luck and, no worries, those 20 billion to 1 things happen, etc.

Maybe kewl could expound in more detail on his results in some way.

The weekend warriors will know one way or the other in a few thousand hands :grin: