Hole-card exposed every hand!

I played 3rd base on a six deck shoe game this week where one dealer consistently flashed the hole card. I usually don't pay that much attention, but it was so obvious this time. I just slouched down a little more in the chair and watched the fireworks.

How much advantage should I get from this information?

Is this considered cheating for me to have this information?

Another question on dealer procedures: When the dealer deals their own cards, which one is the hole card? First or second one? Is there a set rule?
In this case, I could get a glimpse of both. This dealer would use the second card as a "flipper" to flip over the first card face up on the table. Another dealer did just the opposite. Maybe some of you are dealers and can clear this up for me.

tribute said:

How much advantage should I get from this information?

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If you adjust you play accordingly then you can get an 8-9% advantage from knowing the hole card every time. That's a heck of a lot better than the usual 1%, huh? :gaga:

tribute said:

Is this considered cheating for me to have this information?

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Not in Nevada. The Nevada courts have ruled that it is completely legal. I don't know about other states, but I imagine they would be similar.

tribute said:

Another question on dealer procedures: When the dealer deals their own cards, which one is the hole card? First or second one? Is there a set rule?

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Usually the hole card is the second one. That is how I was taught to deal and I'm sure most casinos follow the same procedure, although technically it doesn't really matter from the player's perspective.

-Sonny-

I should think that as long as you are not using some device (a shinner for example) to get a hole shot, or the dealer is intentionally conspiring with you to assist you, I do not see how any legal body could consider that information illegally obtained.

Hmmm.....I've heard "stories" of players coming into a casino in a wheelchair so they would have a lower vantage point for a hole shot. I wonder if the wheelchair could be considered a "device" used to gain advantage and thus resulting in the player being brought up on criminal charges?

Mikeaber said:

I wonder if the wheelchair could be considered a "device" used to gain advantage and thus resulting in the player being brought up on criminal charges?

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I don't think it would hold up in court, but I'm sure the casinos would try to use it!

-Sonny-

Sonny said:

If you adjust you play accordingly then you can get an 8-9% advantage from knowing the hole card every time. That's a heck of a lot better than the usual 1%, huh? :gaga:

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Sonny, do you have a simplified hole-card strategy that you can provide us? zg

zengrifter said:

Sonny, do you have a simplified hole-card strategy that you can provide us? zg

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There is a complete front-loading BS in Million Dollar BJ on page 206, or you can use the simplified "Big Pat/Little Pat" strategy on page 219. Here's a quick summary:

Dealer's Hand:
Big Pat = Hard 17,18,19,20,11,A6,A7,A8,A9
Little Pat = Hard 7,8,9,10,AA,A2
Big Stiff = Hard 12,13,14,15,16
Little Stiff = Hard 4,5,6,A3,A4,A5

Player's Strategy:
Big Pat = Hit until hard 17 or soft 18 (soft 19 for 9/10 upcard). Do not double or split anything.
Little Pat = Hit until 17. Split A,A and 8,8. Double 10 and 11.
Big Stiff = Hit until 12. Split and double everything.
Little Stiff = Play as if dealer shows a 5 upcard.

-Sonny-

I have never encountered a flashing dealer in a shoe game. Thanks for the simple holecard strategy. zg

tribute said:

This dealer would use the second card as a "flipper" to flip over the first card face up on the table.

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Yeah, this is definitely NOT a typical house procedure. Dealers are trained to flip over their first card with their hand as it is dealt, then slide their second card (the hole card) across the table face down and slip it underneath their first card. The “flipper” technique should only be used after all of the players have played their hands and the dealer is revealing their hole card to everyone.

You should take advantage of this opportunity whenever possible because that dealer will be removed and retrained as soon as a floorman catches them doing that!

-Sonny-

Sonny said:

There is a complete front-loading BS in Million Dollar BJ on page 206, but I usually use the simplified "Big Pat/Little Pat" strategy on page 219. Here's a quick summary:

Dealer's Hand:
Big Pat = Hard 17,18,19,20,11,A6,A7,A8,A9
Little Pat = Hard 7,8,9,10,AA,A2
Big Stiff = Hard 12,13,14,15,16
Little Stiff = Hard 4,5,6,A3,A4,A5

Player's Strategy:
Big Pat = Hit until hard 17 or soft 18 (soft 19 for 9/10 upcard). Do not double or split anything.
Little Pat = Hit until 17. Split A,A and 8,8. Double 10 and 11.
Big Stiff = Hit until 12. Split and double everything.
Little Stiff = Play as if dealer shows a 5 upcard.

-Sonny-

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Hi Sonny,

what does that mean here? What means Big and Little Pat? And how can i use these infos?

Thank you for further infos.

Just re-read his post carefully, it answers your question. zg

Just did the whole thread again.

It's about to see the hole card. But I still don't know what Big and Little Pat means and what that little table gives me.

OK, what's not clear about this part? -

Dealer's Hand:
Big Pat = Hard 17,18,19,20,11,A6,A7,A8,A9
Little Pat = Hard 7,8,9,10,AA,A2
Big Stiff = Hard 12,13,14,15,16
Little Stiff = Hard 4,5,6,A3,A4,A5

Everything :-(

This is a simplified hole-card strategy (ie, how to play when you know the delear's hole-card). What is the confusion? zg

EXAMPLES -

Dealer's Hand:
Big Pat = Hard 17,18,19,20,11,A6,A7,A8,A9
---------
MEANS: IF the dealer has hard 17-A9 its called a "BIG PAT"

==========
Player's Strategy:
Big Pat = Hit until hard 17 or soft 18 (soft 19 for 9/10 upcard). Do not double or split anything.
---------
MEANS: IF dealer has "BIG PAT", this is your play strategy.

Perfect.

Now I know what Pat means.

"Pat" means a hand that does not need to be hit (usually hard 17 and up). "Stiff" means a hand that might bust if you hit (12 and up).

-Sonny-

Hi Sonny,

stiff I knew, but I never did hear pat before.

Sonny said:

Big Stiff = Hit until 12. Split and double everything.

-Sonny-

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Here's a question for an old thread. When you say, split and double everything, does that mean everything. Would you double on a seven or a six if the dealer is showing a twelve or a thirteen? Or are there limits to "double everything?"

jimbiggs said:

Here's a question for an old thread. When you say, split and double everything, does that mean everything. Would you double on a seven or a six if the dealer is showing a twelve or a thirteen? Or are there limits to "double everything?"

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If you play perfect hole card strategy you would, but most authors say not to double a hand less than 8.

Mikeaber said:

I should think that as long as you are not using some device (a shinner for example) to get a hole shot, or the dealer is intentionally conspiring with you to assist you, I do not see how any legal body could consider that information illegally obtained.

Hmmm.....I've heard "stories" of players coming into a casino in a wheelchair so they would have a lower vantage point for a hole shot. I wonder if the wheelchair could be considered a "device" used to gain advantage and thus resulting in the player being brought up on criminal charges?

Click to expand...

Yeah Mike, Don't even think about it! Put your wheel chair away, you 'ol fart, and just use your cain to get around the pits. BTW, nice to here from you.:laugh: