Hole-card exposed every hand!

[ScottH]

Here's a question for an old thread. When you say, split and double everything, does that mean everything. Would you double on a seven or a six if the dealer is showing a twelve or a thirteen? Or are there limits to "double everything?"

Don't do anything that would cause you any special attention. Like doubling a 5 for example.

 

[ihate17]

longevity in hole carding

A computer can spit out perfect hole card strategy easily enough, but if you play that way you create two problems.
1. They will not let you play very long.
2. They will know what is happening and in turn will re-train the dealer, preventing others from hole carding this dealer till the sloppy habits come back.

Common sense is the best strategy. You must just give it up on some hands, like a hard 18 or 19 when you know the dealer has 20.
You can hit a hard 17 sometimes. Say the dealer is showing an ace and has a 7,8, or 9 in the hole. At the same time it looks very strange to hit hard 17 when the dealer is showing a 7 and has an ace in the hole or showing an 8 with a ten in the hole.
What good is getting the max edge if you are backed off in a few minutes and the dealer gets training. Better to cut your edge to a very high but not max edge and perhaps play the whole shift.

ihate17

 

[Mimosine]

Dealer's Hand:
Big Pat = Hard 17,18,19,20,11,A6,A7,A8,A9
Little Pat = Hard 7,8,9,10,AA,A2
Big Stiff = Hard 12,13,14,15,16
Little Stiff = Hard 4,5,6,A3,A4,A5

Player's Strategy:
Big Pat = Hit until hard 17 or soft 18 (soft 19 for 9/10 upcard). Do not double or split anything.
Little Pat = Hit until 17. Split A,A and 8,8. Double 10 and 11.
Big Stiff = Hit until 12. Split and double everything.
Little Stiff = Play as if dealer shows a 5 upcard.

-Sonny-

^ a real gem, thanks!

 

[Brock Windsor]

Partially Identified hole cards

Two of the dealers I watch only partially flash the pips of their hole cards. I can tell (about 90%) if the cards fall into one of these four categories.
1. 2 OR 3
2. 4 Through 10
3. Face Card
4. Ace
The tricky one is the 4 Through 10. I usually play it as a 'worst case' scenario but think I am giving up a lot of edge. Should I play it as though it is always a 7? Will this help/hurt me in the long run?
BW

 

[Cardcounter]

Hole card precedures!

It does not matter what card gets flipped over the first or the second one the card that you do not see is the hole card. On the shoe game the second card is usually the one that is flipped over on single deck the first card is the one that is usually flipped over. However if the dealer accidentally exposed his first card while on the shoe the house procedure would be to use the first card as the up card and tuck the 2nd card underneath and use that as the hole-card. The hole-card by definition is the card that is tucked underneath and the card you are not supposed to see until the end. It doesn't matter if it is the first card dealt to the dealer or the second.
I see people who double on 5,6, and 7 I just think they are idiots even if they do it against a 5 or a 6.
Once I accidentally exposed a 20 and third base hit his hard 19 because obviously he say it. For that hand I saw the card to so I know what I did wrong. Other than that the highest hard # I have seen hit is 18 and that was done with no hole-card knowledge. It was done by a person who plays with a 8% disadvantage. People hitting hard 17 is rare but I do see it happen.

 

[Sonny]

A computer can spit out perfect hole card strategy easily enough, but if you play that way you create two problems.
1. They will not let you play very long.
2. They will know what is happening and in turn will re-train the dealer, preventing others from hole carding this dealer till the sloppy habits come back.

You forgot one:

3. The LVHCM will put out a hit on you. :laugh:

http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/w-agora/view.php?site=bjf&bn=bjf_fightclub&key=1181937335

-Sonny-

 

[Mimosine]

Common sense is the best strategy. You must just give it up on some hands, like a hard 18 or 19 when you know the dealer has 20.
You can hit a hard 17 sometimes. Say the dealer is showing an ace and has a 7,8, or 9 in the hole. At the same time it looks very strange to hit hard 17 when the dealer is showing a 7 and has an ace in the hole or showing an 8 with a ten in the hole.
What good is getting the max edge if you are backed off in a few minutes and the dealer gets training. Better to cut your edge to a very high but not max edge and perhaps play the whole shift.

ihate17

i was thinking that if you were lucky enough to play a game with LS you could really use it to your advantage with hole card play. in a H17 game you are already surrendering 5 or so hands for pitch, and most people play surrender wrong anyway. at the place where i play, not one dealer has ever given the proper surrender advice at the table, not one time when asked about 16 v 10 or 15 v 10 have they ever said "surreneder." this leads me to believe they are told to tell the player hit, or that they are ignorant. either way i think if you played it careful surrendering 17s and even 18s v A or 10 could be used without getting too much suspicion. surely it won't trigger a dealer call out like "hitting hard 17" would.

 

[Brock Windsor]

Surrender 18, hit hard 17

i was thinking that if you were lucky enough to play a game with LS you could really use it to your advantage with hole card play. in a H17 game you are already surrendering 5 or so hands for pitch, and most people play surrender wrong anyway. at the place where i play, not one dealer has ever given the proper surrender advice at the table, not one time when asked about 16 v 10 or 15 v 10 have they ever said "surreneder." this leads me to believe they are told to tell the player hit, or that they are ignorant. either way i think if you played it careful surrendering 17s and even 18s v A or 10 could be used without getting too much suspicion. surely it won't trigger a dealer call out like "hitting hard 17" would.

I've done both, I find the dealers are less of a problem than the rest of the players at the table. "Why you hit haw 17, you so stupit, you tawable" Mind you once you do it a couple times and everyone gets burned they start to leave the table and you can make a lot more money heads up with less attention. Comparing the two though, surrender draws a lot less attention then hitting 17.
BW

 

[ihate17]

17 yes, 18 no

i was thinking that if you were lucky enough to play a game with LS you could really use it to your advantage with hole card play. in a H17 game you are already surrendering 5 or so hands for pitch, and most people play surrender wrong anyway. at the place where i play, not one dealer has ever given the proper surrender advice at the table, not one time when asked about 16 v 10 or 15 v 10 have they ever said "surreneder." this leads me to believe they are told to tell the player hit, or that they are ignorant. either way i think if you played it careful surrendering 17s and even 18s v A or 10 could be used without getting too much suspicion. surely it won't trigger a dealer call out like "hitting hard 17" would.

The average player thinks that 18 is a pretty good hand against an ace or a 10. Only the good player knows that 18 is probably a loser and will, for instance, hit is soft 18. So my opinion is surrendering an 18 vs 10 or Ace would quickly look suspicious. Seventeen is a number that only the worst of players (those who stay on soft 17) thinks has a decent shot in the same situation. Surrendering your 17 is something you can do, especially with a half way decent act, and you might also hit it sometimes, but the unusual move will get you some attention, so save it for when it is most benificial.

Now let us say you are combining hole card play with counting. A surrender or two might get you an additional hand in a positive count.

ihate17

 

[Brock Windsor]

Hole card play with counting

I do count while hole carding sometimes but fail to see any significance to do so. My instinct is that you are playing with such an edge hole carding that the count is irrelevant. There may be a few strategy changes in extreme counts while hole carding (would you split 10's against a 12 in a + 3 count? I suspect you should) My experiences so far seem to indicate hitting 17, splitting 10's, standing 12 vs 10up, doubling with less than 8, and doubling soft 20 are very shocking. Surrendering 12-17, Doubling 8 or soft 13-18, and all other splits draws much less attention from the other players/pit and dealer.
BW

 

[QFIT]

(would you split 10's against a 12 in a + 3 count? I suspect you should)

Good instincts. I get a HiLo index of +2 for single deck and +1 for shoes.

 

[ihate17]

Some of us just can not help ourselves

I do count while hole carding sometimes but fail to see any significance to do so. My instinct is that you are playing with such an edge hole carding that the count is irrelevant. There may be a few strategy changes in extreme counts while hole carding (would you split 10's against a 12 in a + 3 count? I suspect you should) My experiences so far seem to indicate hitting 17, splitting 10's, standing 12 vs 10up, doubling with less than 8, and doubling soft 20 are very shocking. Surrendering 12-17, Doubling 8 or soft 13-18, and all other splits draws much less attention from the other players/pit and dealer.
BW

I see cards, I count. We could be playing gin, I could tell you what the count was probably.

ihate17

 

[Sonny]

I see cards, I count. We could be playing gin, I could tell you what the count was probably.

Do you ease off your bet spread or play any more conservatively when you play with a readable dealer as opposed to when you are straight counting?

-Sonny-

 

[ihate17]

Little spread

Do you ease off your bet spread or play any more conservatively when you play with a readable dealer as opposed to when you are straight counting?

-Sonny-

Counting is just a habit. With a readable dealer they will never bust me for bet spread because nearly always I am beting my max or very close to it. Counting can come in handy for playing strategy and for those hands where you do not see the hole card.
Other than not spreading I am not sure what you mean by playing more conservatively.

ihate17

 

[moo321]

Yeah, a kelly bet ramp for a hole-carding dealer would call for probably 2% of your bankroll on an average hand. So, you might go up to 3% if the count jumped.