Zen Count with 2D True Count Conversion

R

rukus

Well-Known Member
In this thread I'm going to be posting several sets of indices for the Zen count using a 2D true count conversion instead of the popular 1D TC conversion. My plan is to post indices for S17 and H17, for no DAS and DAS, and for LS. I'll post the various sets as they are completed. Also, I will generate what I think are optimal bet ramps for "play all" and wong-in/out situations (if someone confirms these when I am done that would be great because I do not have CVCX). Finally, when done, I'll post some comparisons vs other counts.

Before I get started, I want some input from you guys:
1. What # decks and pen would you prefer I use to generate the indices? I was thinking 6D/75%, but if people prefer I do something like 4D/75% pen as some sort of compromise between pitch and shoe versions, I will do that instead.
2. Do you want rounded indices as Zengrifter suggests? I still plan on generating the full-on, proper numbers, but will post rounded versions if people prefer that instead. I personally do not use rounded numbers and am leaning to posting the non-rounded indices and letting others round to their own preference.

So, for the next half day or so, please comment on what #Decks/Pen you prefer I use and whether you want rounded indices posted (and how rounded you want them).

Thanks,
Rukus
 
Last edited:
zengrifter

zengrifter

Banned
rukus said:
Before I get started, I want some input from you guys:
1. What # decks and pen would you prefer I use to generate the indices? I was thinking 6D/75%, but if people prefer I do something like 4D/75% pen as some sort of compromise between pitch and shoe versions, I will do that instead.
Click to expand...
Yes 4D as composite compromise.

2. Do you want rounded indices as Zengrifter suggests? I still plan on generating the full-on, proper numbers, but will post rounded versions if people prefer that instead. I personally do not use rounded numbers and am leaning to posting the non-rounded indices and letting others round to their own preference.
Click to expand...
Rounded, baby - its the only way to fly! Medium rounded afterwhich we will further round by sight, if/as needed. zg

Ps - This is your shot at immortality - If you succeed it will become an open source sticky!

Ps - You can run comparison vs. Mentor, but I think they will generate the same SCOREs.
 
R

rukus

Well-Known Member
CVData Inputs

Just so everyone is on the same page and can reproduce any of my work if they so decide, I'm going to post (and update) my inputs to CVData below.

Decks: 4
Penetration: 3/4 (75%). 1 burn card at beginning of shoe.
Rules (besides the variations I handle such as S/H17, DAS, LS): DOA; Aces can only be split once, and only one additional card to each split ace.

Original Playing Strategy used to generate the indices: Complete Basic Strategy with the Zen count card tags --
Code: 
[B]A	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10[/B]
-1	1	1	2	2	2	1	0	0	-2
Betting Strategy: Flat betting

True Count Calculation: Flooring; 2D resolution, ie count per 2D segments remaining.

To achieve 2D resolution I needed to use the "Custom TC" option and specify my divisors by where in the pack we are. Thus, the following divisors are used at the various points in the deck (note: this is 2D resolution with estimation to the nearest half-deck => I did this as a compromise, as I assumed many people used full-deck estimation in shoes and others used quarter deck estimation in pitch games) --

Code: 
[B]CVData "Custom TC" Inputs[/B]	
[B]Decks Remaining[/B]         [B]Divisor[/B]
6.00			3.000
5.75			2.750
5.50			2.750
5.25			2.500
5.00			2.500
4.75			2.250
4.50			2.250
4.25			2.000
4.00			2.000
3.75			1.750
3.50			1.750
3.25			1.500
3.00			1.500
2.75			1.250
2.50			1.250
2.25			1.000
2.00			1.000
1.75			0.750
1.50			0.750
1.25			0.500
1.00			0.500
0.75			0.250
0.50			0.250
0.25			0.125
Index Generation Accuracy: Standard

For Risk-Averse Indices: multi-pass, max bet @ 6, RA Ratio of 1.
 
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R

rukus

Well-Known Member
zengrifter said:
This is also a good demo of QFIT CV Data applied, so Norm should comment as we proceed. zg
Click to expand...
agreed. Norm, your comments would be more than welcome here.
 
R

rukus

Well-Known Member
OK - I have the first set ready (non-RA). I have one major concern though - for splitting 8,8 vs 10, the result I get says to either never split or only split if TC>18. This just does not sound correct. Have never seen this before, and I have generated Zen indices in the past for 1D TC. Anyone have any ideas?
 
R

rukus

Well-Known Member
Questions for QFIT

Norm, your help/advice would be great appreciated here:

first - do you have any idea why I might be getting "Never Split" or an extremely high index number to start splitting 8,8 vs 10?

second - when I selected to generate "RA Indices" by checking the RA box, I realized the options to select the additional generation of various table sets (ie to generate S17 AND H17 or noDAS and then DAS all at the same time) disappears. Do I need to manually generate RA indices for one set of rules and then go back, change the rules and re-run the RA index generation? For example, if I set the base rules to not allow DAS, and then generate the RA indices, do I need to then go back, change the rules on the setup page to allow DAS and re-generate in order to get the DAS split indices? I did not have to do this when generating regular EV-maximizing indices, I only noticed this after generating RA indices. Am I missing something here?

Thanks!
Rukus
 
R

rukus

Well-Known Member
jack said:
1. Never split is definetely lose additional wager.

2. TC +18 is way to high for both NDAS,DAS.:confused:
(the ao2 is +12 w/das)

Cant figure out why it would be so high, even for a L2.
Unless you pushed on 18 or something?

Those GD pair of 88s.
Click to expand...
not sure what you meant by #1 - this "american" rules, not ENHC, so additional wager is always lost no matter what.

as for #2, I actually read one of the charts wrong - it should read "Split when TC < 18", but that wasn't clear on the PDF of the charts that CVData printed out (QFIT you may want to make this change in the next update of the software - let me know if I have not explained the problem clearly). However this index only appears for noDAS. So now I have the problem half solved, but for DAS allowed, the index comes up as "Never Split", which makes no sense to me. If anything, it should say ALWAYS split (especially if the TC number above which splitting's not advised is above +40) Any more ideas? Keep them coming please, I appreciate it.
 
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R

rukus

Well-Known Member
zengrifter said:
It means STAND @ +18, right? zg
Click to expand...
correct: the report produced by CVData did not clearly alert me to the fact that this was a "reverse" index play, ie only split up until the value, not when TC is greater than the value - I had to go back into the actually strategy tables and double check this since it did not sound correct. In reality it should be stand @ TC 18 and above, do not split. I pointed this out one post back and hope Norm reads this to make sure future versions of CVData properly denote "reverse" indices.

BUT what about the other half of my original problem with the results - where allowing DAS results in being told to never split 8,8 v 10? Something's got to be wrong there. Any suggestions on that one?
 
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zengrifter

zengrifter

Banned
rukus said:
correct: the report produced by CVData did not clearly alert me to the fact that this was a "reverse" index play, ie only split up until the value, not when TC is greater than the value - I had to go back into the actually strategy tables and double check this since it did not sound correct. In reality it should be stand @ TC 18 and above, do not split. I pointed this out one post back and hope Norm reads this to make sure future versions of CVData properly denote "reverse" indices.
Click to expand...
Thats not a bug to correct - its one of 2-3 index departures that are reverse of the underlying logic of the program. Anyone running a sim would already know these exceptions.

Right? Or, wait a second... hey Scott/p21, does your software do this too? zg
Scott/P21's reply: "Yes and no."​
 
R

rukus

Well-Known Member
zengrifter said:
Thats not a bug to correct - its one of 2-3 index departures that are reverse of the underlying logic of the program. Anyone running a sim would already know these exceptions.

Right? Or, wait a second... hey Scott/p21, does your software do this too? zg
Scott/P21's reply: "Yes and no."​
Click to expand...
ok, fine; that issue is settled then. would still be helpful for CVData to somehow denote the reverse indices in the reports that it generates.

one question still remains: what about the issue of 8,8 v 10 with DAS allowed showing up as "never split"?
 
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zengrifter

zengrifter

Banned
rukus said:
ok, fine; that issue is settled then. would still be helpful for CVData to somehow denote the reverse indices in the reports that it generates.

one question still remains: what about the issue of 8,8 v 10 with DAS allowed showing up as "never split"?
Click to expand...
Scott/P21? zg
 
R

rukus

Well-Known Member
ok i got the index now for 8,8 vs 10 in DAS. i basically forced CVData to generate just this index (while using my set of all the other 2D indices) under just 3/4D, DAS conditions. It is split 8,8 v 10 when TC < 32. formatted set of non-risk averse indices to follow shortly.
 
R

rukus

Well-Known Member
2D TC Zen - Non Risk-Averse Indices

These are unrounded, I will post rounded indices afterwards, but I like to present as much information as possible at first and let others decide which bits they want/don't want. Once all indices have been generated and posted (non RA and RA, rounded and unrounded), I will upload an excel spreadsheet with all of them.

Numbers before the "/" are for S17 and numbers after it are H17.

Code: 
Insurance	10
Code: 
[u][B]Hit/Stand Tables[/B]																						
		2		3		4		5		6		7		8		9		X		A		                [/u]
17		Stand		Stand		Stand		Stand		Stand		Stand		Stand		Stand		Stand		-24 / -18		
16		-32		-36		Stand		Stand		Stand		Hit		Hit		20		1		29 / 12		
15		-20		-24		-28		-34		-36 / Stand	Hit		Hit		29		12		31 / 17		
14		-11		-15		-19		-24		-24 / -32	Hit		Hit		Hit		29		Hit		
13		-2		-7		-11		-16		-15 / -24	Hit		Hit		Hit		Hit		Hit		
12		11		5		1		-5		-3 / -10	Hit		Hit		Hit		Hit		Hit		
A7		Stand		Stand		Stand		Stand		Stand		Stand		Stand		Hit		Hit		1		


[u][B]Double Down Tables[/B]																						
		2		3		4		5		6		7		8		9		X		A		                [/u]
11		Double		Double		Double		Double		Double		-34		-26		-16		-15		3 / -2		
10		Double		Double		Double		Double		Double		-24		-16		-6		13		12
9		4		-3		-8		-15		-22		13		Hit		Hit		Hit		Hit
8		Hit		Hit		Hit		13		7		Hit		Hit		Hit		Hit		Hit
A9		Stand		Stand		Stand		18		17		Stand		Stand		Stand		Stand		Stand
A8		25		16		11		5		3		Stand		Stand		Stand		Stand		Stand
A7		2		-5		-15		-22		-24		Stand		Stand		Hit		Hit		Hit
A6		4		-9		-18		-32		Double		Hit		Hit		Hit		Hit		Hit
A5		Hit		Hit		-5		-19		Double		Hit		Hit		Hit		Hit		Hit
A4		Hit		Hit		1		-15		-30		Hit		Hit		Hit		Hit		Hit
A3		Hit		Hit		7		-7		-19		Hit		Hit		Hit		Hit		Hit
A2		Hit		Hit		11		0		-8		Hit		Hit		Hit		Hit		Hit


[u][B]Splits Table - No DAS[/B]																				
		2		3		4		5		6		7		8		9		X		A		                [/u]
A,A		Split		Split		Split		Split		Split		Split		Split		-28		-30		-14 / -18
10,10		37		29		23		17		17		N		N		N		N		N
9,9		-5		-9		-12		-18		-16		25		-32		-37		N		13 / 9
8,8		Split		Split		Split		Split		Split		Split		Split		Split		**18		Split / -6
7,7		-26		-30		-34		Split		Split		Split		N		N		N		N
6,6		5		-3		-9		-17		-23		N		N		N		N		N
5,5		N		N		N		N		N		N		N		N		N		N
4,4		N		N		N		N		N		N		N		N		N		N
3,3		27		11		-2		-22		Split		**24		N		N		N		N
2,2		21		9		-10		-24		Split		Split		N		N		N		N
[I]** Split when TC < Value	[/I]																			

[u][B]Splits Table - with DAS[/B]																				
		2		3		4		5		6		7		8		9		X		A		                [/u]
A,A		Split		Split		Split		Split		Split		Split		Split		-28		-30		-18
10,10		N		31		23		17		15		N		N		N		N		N
9,9		-11		-14		-16		-22		-28		13		-30		-30		N		9
8,8		Split		Split		Split		Split		Split		Split		Split		Split		**32		-6
7,7		Split		-34		-34		Split		Split		Split		6		N		N		N
6,6		-7		-12		-32		Split		Split		Split		N		N		N		N
5,5		N		N		N		N		N		N		N		N		N		N
4,4		N		29		9		-4		-18		N		N		N		N		N
3,3		-2		-11		-17		-24		-37		Split		N		N		N		N
2,2		-14		-18		-14		-22		-32		Split		35		N		N		N
[I]** Split when TC < Value	[/I]																			

[u][B]Surrender Table[/B]																				
		2		3		4		5		6		7		8		9		X		A		                [/u]
17		N		N		N		N		N		N		N		N		N		N / Surr
16		N		N		N		N		N		N		29		0		-11		-1
8,8		N		N		N		N		N		N		N		33		9		N
15		N		N		N		N		N		N		23		8		-2		5
14		N		N		N		N		N		N		N		19		9		N
7,7		N		N		N		N		N		N		N		17		6		N / Surr
 
Last edited:
R

rukus

Well-Known Member
ROUNDED 2D TC Zen Indices

Below are the same non Risk-Averse Indices, ROUNDED to the nearest multiple of 5, or 0. I opted for this level of coarseness since the range of numbers was so wide (whereas in a regular set of 1D indices most index numbers might range from -20 to 20, these numbers went from -35 to 35).

If someone else is interested in helping out with this project, would you mind simming/comparing these two variations? If no one else is available, I will have to do this a little later down the road.

Anyway, here are the rounded indices. Again, numbers before the "/" apply to S17 games and numbers after it apply to H17 games.

Code: 
[u][B]Hit/Stand Tables[/B]																				
		2		3		4		5		6		7		8		9		X		A               [/u]
17		Stand		Stand		Stand		Stand		Stand		Stand		Stand		Stand		Stand		-25 / -20
16		-35		-35		Stand		Stand		Stand		Hit		Hit		20		0		30 / 10
15		-20		-25		-30		-35		-35 / Stand	Hit		Hit		30		10		30 / 15
14		-10		-15		-20		-25		-25 / -30	Hit		Hit		Hit		30		Hit
13		-5		-5		-10		-15		-15 / -25	Hit		Hit		Hit		Hit		Hit
12		10		5		0		-5		-5 / -10	Hit		Hit		Hit		Hit		Hit
A7		Stand		Stand		Stand		Stand		Stand		Stand		Stand		Hit		Hit		0


[u][B]Double Down Tables[/B]																				
		2		3		4		5		6		7		8		9		X		A               [/u]
11		Double		Double		Double		Double		Double		-35		-25		-15		-15		5 / -5
10		Double		Double		Double		Double		Double		-25		-15		-5		15		10
9		5		-5		-10		-15		-20		15		Hit		Hit		Hit		Hit
8		Hit		Hit		Hit		15		5		Hit		Hit		Hit		Hit		Hit
A9		Stand		Stand		Stand		20		15		Stand		Stand		Stand		Stand		Stand
A8		25		15		10		5		5		Stand		Stand		Stand		Stand		Stand
A7		0		-5		-15		-20		-25		Stand		Stand		Hit		Hit		Hit
A6		5		-10		-20		-30		Double		Hit		Hit		Hit		Hit		Hit
A5		Hit		Hit		-5		-20		Double		Hit		Hit		Hit		Hit		Hit
A4		Hit		Hit		0		-15		-30		Hit		Hit		Hit		Hit		Hit
A3		Hit		Hit		5		-5		-20		Hit		Hit		Hit		Hit		Hit
A2		Hit		Hit		10		0		-10		Hit		Hit		Hit		Hit		Hit


[u][B]Splits Table - No DAS[/B]																				
		2		3		4		5		6		7		8		9		X		A               [/u]
A,A		Split		Split		Split		Split		Split		Split		Split		-30		-30		-15 / -20
10,10		40		30		25		15		15		N		N		N		N		N
9,9		-5		-10		-10		-20		-15		25		-30		-35		N		15 / 10
8,8		Split		Split		Split		Split		Split		Split		Split		Split		**20		Split / -5
7,7		-25		-30		-35		Split		Split		Split		N		N		N		N
6,6		5		-5		-10		-15		-25		N		N		N		N		N
5,5		N		N		N		N		N		N		N		N		N		N
4,4		N		N		N		N		N		N		N		N		N		N
3,3		25		10		0		-20		Split		25		N		N		N		N
2,2		20		10		-10		-25		Split		Split		N		N		N		N
[I]** Split when TC < Value	[/I]																			

[u][B]Splits Table - with DAS[/B]																				
		2		3		4		5		6		7		8		9		X		A               [/u]
A,A		Split		Split		Split		Split		Split		Split		Split		-30		-30		-20
10,10		N		30		25		15		15		N		N		N		N		N
9,9		-10		-15		-15		-20		-30		15		-30		-30		N		10
8,8		Split		Split		Split		Split		Split		Split		Split		Split		**30		-5
7,7		Split		-35		-35		Split		Split		Split		5		N		N		N
6,6		-5		-10		-30		Split		Split		Split		N		N		N		N
5,5		N		N		N		N		N		N		N		N		N		N
4,4		N		30		10		-5		-20		N		N		N		N		N
3,3		0		-10		-15		-25		-35		Split		N		N		N		N
2,2		-15		-20		-15		-20		-30		Split		35		N		N		N
[I]** Split when TC < Value	[/I]																			

[u][B]Surrender Table[/B]																				
		2		3		4		5		6		7		8		9		X		A               [/u]
17		N		N		N		N		N		N		N		N		N		N / Surr
16		N		N		N		N		N		N		30		0		-10		0
8,8		N		N		N		N		N		N		N		35		10		N
15		N		N		N		N		N		N		25		10		0		5
14		N		N		N		N		N		N		N		20		10		N
7,7		N		N		N		N		N		N		N		15		5		N / Surr
 
Last edited:
zengrifter

zengrifter

Banned
rukus said:
Below are the same non Risk-Averse Indices, ROUNDED to the nearest multiple of 5, or 0. I opted for this level of coarseness since the range of numbers was so wide (whereas in a regular set of 1D indices most index numbers might range from -20 to 20, these numbers went from -35 to 35).

If someone else is interested in helping out with this project, would you mind simming/comparing these two variations? If no one else is available, I will have to do this a little later down the road.

Anyway, here are the rounded indices. Again, numbers before the "/" apply to S17 games and numbers after it apply to H17 games.

Code: 
[U][B]Hit/Stand Tables[/B]                                                                                [/U]
[U]       2        3        4        5        6        7        8        9        X        A               [/U]
17        Stand        Stand        Stand        Stand        Stand        Stand        Stand        Stand        Stand        -25 / -20
16        -35        -35        Stand        Stand        Stand        Hit        Hit        20        0        30 / 10
15        -20        -25        -30        -35        -35 / Stand    Hit        Hit        30        10        30 / 15
14        -10        -15        -20        -25        -25 / -30    Hit        Hit        Hit        30        Hit
13        -5        -5        -10        -15        -15 / -25    Hit        Hit        Hit        Hit        Hit
12        10        5        0        -5        -5 / -10    Hit        Hit        Hit        Hit        Hit
A7        Stand        Stand        Stand        Stand        Stand        Stand        Stand        Hit        Hit        0
 
 
[U][B]Double Down Tables[/B]                                                                                [/U]
[U]       2        3        4        5        6        7        8        9        X        A               [/U]
11        Double        Double        Double        Double        Double        -35        -25        -15        -15        5 / -5
10        Double        Double        Double        Double        Double        -25        -15        -5        15        10
9        5        -5        -10        -15        -20        15        Hit        Hit        Hit        Hit
8        Hit        Hit        Hit        15        5        Hit        Hit        Hit        Hit        Hit
A9        Stand        Stand        Stand        20        15        Stand        Stand        Stand        Stand        Stand
A8        25        15        10        5        5        Stand        Stand        Stand        Stand        Stand
A7        0        -5        -15        -20        -25        Stand        Stand        Hit        Hit        Hit
A6        5        -10        -20        -30        Double        Hit        Hit        Hit        Hit        Hit
A5        Hit        Hit        -5        -20        Double        Hit        Hit        Hit        Hit        Hit
A4        Hit        Hit        0        -15        -30        Hit        Hit        Hit        Hit        Hit
A3        Hit        Hit        5        -5        -20        Hit        Hit        Hit        Hit        Hit
A2        Hit        Hit        10        0        -10        Hit        Hit        Hit        Hit        Hit
 
 
[U][B]Splits Table - No DAS[/B]                                                                                [/U]
[U]       2        3        4        5        6        7        8        9        X        A               [/U]
A,A        Split        Split        Split        Split        Split        Split        Split        -30        -30        -15 / -20
10,10        40        30        25        15        15        N        N        N        N        N
9,9        -5        -10        -10        -20        -15        25        -30        -35        N        15 / 10
8,8        Split        Split        Split        Split        Split        Split        Split        Split        **20        Split / -5
7,7        -25        -30        -35        Split        Split        Split        N        N        N        N
6,6        5        -5        -10        -15        -25        N        N        N        N        N
5,5        N        N        N        N        N        N        N        N        N        N
4,4        N        N        N        N        N        N        N        N        N        N
3,3        25        10        0        -20        Split        25        N        N        N        N
2,2        20        10        -10        -25        Split        Split        N        N        N        N
[I]** Split when TC < Value    [/I]                                                                            
 
[U][B]Splits Table - with DAS[/B]                                                                                [/U]
[U]       2        3        4        5        6        7        8        9        X        A               [/U]
A,A        Split        Split        Split        Split        Split        Split        Split        -30        -30        -20
10,10        N        30        25        15        15        N        N        N        N        N
9,9        -10        -15        -15        -20        -30        15        -30        -30        N        10
8,8        Split        Split        Split        Split        Split        Split        Split        Split        **30        -5
7,7        Split        -35        -35        Split        Split        Split        5        N        N        N
6,6        -5        -10        -30        Split        Split        Split        N        N        N        N
5,5        N        N        N        N        N        N        N        N        N        N
4,4        N        30        10        -5        -20        N        N        N        N        N
3,3        0        -10        -15        -25        -35        Split        N        N        N        N
2,2        -15        -20        -15        -20        -30        Split        35        N        N        N
[I]** Split when TC < Value    [/I]                                                                            
 
[U][B]Surrender Table[/B]                                                                                [/U]
[U]       2        3        4        5        6        7        8        9        X        A               [/U]
17        N        N        N        N        N        N        N        N        N        N / Surr
16        N        N        N        N        N        N        30        0        -10        0
8,8        N        N        N        N        N        N        N        35        10        N
15        N        N        N        N        N        N        25        10        0        5
14        N        N        N        N        N        N        N        20        10        N
7,7        N        N        N        N        N        N        N        15        5        N / Surr
Click to expand...
Whoaa! Too rounded for our purposes - final rounding to be eyeballed. Otherwise both tables are a good first step. zg
 
zengrifter

zengrifter

Banned
Anyone who might think of learning this would be well advised to purchase BJ Blue Book by Fred Renzey - available at the BJINFO bookstore - Renzey's Mentor Count is similar to ZEN and describes in detail the 2D-TC method and application. zg
 
zengrifter

zengrifter

Banned
2d: Rc = Tc

Its about that time when I start to reimprint my trusty old ZEN matrices after a 2 year hiatus in SoCal. I'm very tempted to awitch to the 2D calibration variety. zg

------------------

2D: RC = TC

Remaining Decks -

6.0 /3
5.0 /2.5
4.0 /2
3.0 /1.5
2.0 /1
1.5 x1.5
1.0 x2
0.7 x3
0.5 x4
0.3 x6
 
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