Advantage Play -- Bill Zender
- Thread starter FLASH1296
- Start date
Lonesome Gambler
Well-Known Member
Wow, I initially thought it would be a good 5 years before the casinos finally got wise to Sp21, but Zender has a pretty solid rep. This is definitely much worse than the Aponte seminars because identifying card counters would be much less valuable to casinos than identifying advanced strategies for other games currently in use. Hmm...
Automatic Monkey
Banned
I'm not too concerned about it. You take a dummy, send him to one of these seminars, and what you get back is a dummy who knows just enough to get into trouble.
More important is that we do not give any kind of help to people like Zender. Anyone who earns money from AP by any means other than playing at the tables, books or seminars or whatever, cannot be extended the same degree of openness as someone who is purely a player.
More important is that we do not give any kind of help to people like Zender. Anyone who earns money from AP by any means other than playing at the tables, books or seminars or whatever, cannot be extended the same degree of openness as someone who is purely a player.
Tarzan
Banned
One for Penn and Teller's show
I wrote Flash a personal message with my thoughts on this but I'll go ahead and spew forth with my opinionated opinion here also!------------
Not for a long long time at best if EVER will casinos give any real attention to Spanish21 as far as anyone exploiting this game to any real extent. Casinos go by the till, the profitibility of any given game and Spanish21 rakes it in left and right for them! Even if a small handful of advantage players can grind a few bucks out of it the overall is that it's "carnival game" status will be here for a long long time to come because of the off the chart profits the casinos make on this game! Bill Zender is there to sell seats to his little shin dig hoe down and anything he can come up with to use as cannon fodder to show what a whizbang he truly is (and justify charging nearly a thousand bucks a pop) will work to fill in some convention/seminar time in my opinion. Just like a lawyer at a deposition--- Throw anything and everything you can at the wall and see what sticks!
Instilling sufficient paranoia into the casinos is what is keeping this guy in business, I mean HOLY F**K!----Advantage ROULETTE????? Does he have a segment on "Those evil advantage 3 card poker players" TOO???? How about going after "psychics" and telling the casinos they need to be on there guard for THOSE evil f**kers also; He could make another little separate seminar just for them for a mere $400 a pop, since their numbers are fewer than those advantage roulette players!
In regular blackjack casinos have like... .03% of their players that might maybe can kinda sorta turn a profit. Spanish21? What, are say... 5% of this whopping .03% going to work in earnest toward going the grueling whole 9 yards to effective advantage play on this game... so all.... 8? of these guys actually get it down to a science on grinding a small profit at Spanish21. I seriously doubt this will cut into the casinos's huge profits from Spanish21 and if anything might HELP them (if the game gets the right press that it is somehow beatable) and the overall public will continue to lose their mule at this game and the casinos will continue to rake it in, business as usual.
Bill Zender will ALSO continue to rake it in by charging some FAT DOLLARS to his official seminars that will score him more cash out of the casinos than all the advantage play Spanish21 profits of these few people combined!
[Please note that percentages I put down here are not truly accurate or verified but stated in order to show the sorts of slim percentage margins we are talking about.]
I wrote Flash a personal message with my thoughts on this but I'll go ahead and spew forth with my opinionated opinion here also!------------
Not for a long long time at best if EVER will casinos give any real attention to Spanish21 as far as anyone exploiting this game to any real extent. Casinos go by the till, the profitibility of any given game and Spanish21 rakes it in left and right for them! Even if a small handful of advantage players can grind a few bucks out of it the overall is that it's "carnival game" status will be here for a long long time to come because of the off the chart profits the casinos make on this game! Bill Zender is there to sell seats to his little shin dig hoe down and anything he can come up with to use as cannon fodder to show what a whizbang he truly is (and justify charging nearly a thousand bucks a pop) will work to fill in some convention/seminar time in my opinion. Just like a lawyer at a deposition--- Throw anything and everything you can at the wall and see what sticks!
Instilling sufficient paranoia into the casinos is what is keeping this guy in business, I mean HOLY F**K!----Advantage ROULETTE????? Does he have a segment on "Those evil advantage 3 card poker players" TOO???? How about going after "psychics" and telling the casinos they need to be on there guard for THOSE evil f**kers also; He could make another little separate seminar just for them for a mere $400 a pop, since their numbers are fewer than those advantage roulette players!
In regular blackjack casinos have like... .03% of their players that might maybe can kinda sorta turn a profit. Spanish21? What, are say... 5% of this whopping .03% going to work in earnest toward going the grueling whole 9 yards to effective advantage play on this game... so all.... 8? of these guys actually get it down to a science on grinding a small profit at Spanish21. I seriously doubt this will cut into the casinos's huge profits from Spanish21 and if anything might HELP them (if the game gets the right press that it is somehow beatable) and the overall public will continue to lose their mule at this game and the casinos will continue to rake it in, business as usual.
Bill Zender will ALSO continue to rake it in by charging some FAT DOLLARS to his official seminars that will score him more cash out of the casinos than all the advantage play Spanish21 profits of these few people combined!
[Please note that percentages I put down here are not truly accurate or verified but stated in order to show the sorts of slim percentage margins we are talking about.]
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Explain this to me, Tarzan - We all agree that the casinos make oodles of bucks at Sp21. So why is it the Sp21 tables will be full, yet there are dealers standing around at empty BJ tables. Why don't they open up more Sp21 tables rather than keep them unmanned (or unwomanned)?
Automatic Monkey
Banned
It is weird. SP21 is a copyrighted game and they have to pay a ton for each layout. Casinos don't like to gamble and I can understand their thinking in not going out and buying a dozen more SP21 tables per store like the CT stores did.21forme said:
What doesn't make sense is buying the layouts and then letting the table sit closed, wasting their investment. And I believe they pay per month per table too. My theory is they have a limited number of dealers who are trained to deal SP21 and as the quality of dealers decreases, the quantity of useful ones does too.
FLASH1296
Well-Known Member
The reason that the Span21 tables are frequently crowded is twofold:
a) Ploppies drool over the "Match the Dealer" side bet (irrespective of the 3% vig) Most often, every player at the table plays it. For many, it is the sole reason for their playing the game.
b) There are so few tables (often only one or two) that it can be hard for them to be anything but crowded at ordinarily busy times.
a) Ploppies drool over the "Match the Dealer" side bet (irrespective of the 3% vig) Most often, every player at the table plays it. For many, it is the sole reason for their playing the game.
b) There are so few tables (often only one or two) that it can be hard for them to be anything but crowded at ordinarily busy times.
PrinceDragon
Well-Known Member
He's going to charge $999 a pop thoughPro21 said:
P.D.
creeping panther
Banned
Zender
People openly spill their gut about things like SP-21, 3CP, etc, on and on and for whatever reason I do not understand. I think maybe for ego purposes. Maybe to impress.
So while AP's, feed their ego and aim to impress, Zender will take that info and filter it and then resell to the casino and make a healthy amount by regurgetation.
It is for this reason that I am so cryptic about seemingly small things, I know what can happen and who is reading these boards.
In fact the only time I can ever feel secure is in a chat here and knowing who the other chatters are, and that is usually only a select few. Another reason to never archive a chat.
Truth, most of you are your own worst enemy.
CP
This is a prime example why you must be careful what you post as I am sure Zender pulls much info from BJ sites as to what is going on.FLASH1296 said:
People openly spill their gut about things like SP-21, 3CP, etc, on and on and for whatever reason I do not understand. I think maybe for ego purposes. Maybe to impress.
So while AP's, feed their ego and aim to impress, Zender will take that info and filter it and then resell to the casino and make a healthy amount by regurgetation.
It is for this reason that I am so cryptic about seemingly small things, I know what can happen and who is reading these boards.
In fact the only time I can ever feel secure is in a chat here and knowing who the other chatters are, and that is usually only a select few. Another reason to never archive a chat.
Truth, most of you are your own worst enemy.
CP
Blue Efficacy
Well-Known Member
Wouldn't that be akin to letting the fox into the hen house?bjcount said:
Automatic Monkey
Banned
No, and why would Zender want to be a chat guest? He gives AP seminars to casinos for money. He does not give free lectures to AP's, and he would have no reason to accept the offer other than to get information out from AP's to sell to casinos. There's nothing else in it for him, nor for us.
Katweezel
Well-Known Member
Bill ZenZone Zender
Quote from Bill Zender ad:
..."Over the 2-day ($999) course, Bill will teach students how some of the most popular casino games can be beaten, including blackjack, roulette, craps, baccarat and carnival games including Spanish 21.
Bill documents the techniques used and explains the math advantage that can be gained on using methods like hole card play, zone tracking, sequential tracking, key card tracking, roulette wheel bias, craps rythm roll, baccarat first card advantage and Spanish 21 counting."
I got a couple of questions for you Bill, if I may. (I assume you are reading this...) That is a most impressive AP menu for a measly $999 and covering such vast territory in such a short amount of time. How the hell do you do it? I mean most of those disciplines take years of dedication, practice and persistence to perfect, and then only a tiny 'extraordinary' few will succeed. No doubt you will explain that small point in your opening address... Although, I grant you are not making any outrageous claims with your carefully-worded sentences such as: ..."can be beaten..." and: ..."advantage that can be gained.."
As an instructor, you are obviously well-drilled in all these topics and as such, surely you can earn vast amounts from your casino clients using your many skills legally, and without the tedium of cramming so much info into so many novices, in such a short space of time. Perhaps you enjoy the challenge or something, but wouldn't it make life easier if you could score say an easy million or so once a month using your skills without having to bother with all the other complications involved in setting up seminars and the like?
That' just me Bill, and it's none of my business, is it; but I guess we are all different...
My final point is your students get so much for so little... That is pretty much amazing, considering Aponte's students are asked to pay 6 times as much and his stuff is about only one game. I already nominated you for the Casino Games Hall of Fame. I hope you don't think the nomination was a bit premature. And at your upcoming seminar, I hope you break a leg, as the show-biz saying goes. PS I don't think Scobe is gonna like you spilling his beans about the dice. Have you heard? He has a Sicilian background...
Quote from Bill Zender ad:
..."Over the 2-day ($999) course, Bill will teach students how some of the most popular casino games can be beaten, including blackjack, roulette, craps, baccarat and carnival games including Spanish 21.
Bill documents the techniques used and explains the math advantage that can be gained on using methods like hole card play, zone tracking, sequential tracking, key card tracking, roulette wheel bias, craps rythm roll, baccarat first card advantage and Spanish 21 counting."
I got a couple of questions for you Bill, if I may. (I assume you are reading this...) That is a most impressive AP menu for a measly $999 and covering such vast territory in such a short amount of time. How the hell do you do it? I mean most of those disciplines take years of dedication, practice and persistence to perfect, and then only a tiny 'extraordinary' few will succeed. No doubt you will explain that small point in your opening address... Although, I grant you are not making any outrageous claims with your carefully-worded sentences such as: ..."can be beaten..." and: ..."advantage that can be gained.."
As an instructor, you are obviously well-drilled in all these topics and as such, surely you can earn vast amounts from your casino clients using your many skills legally, and without the tedium of cramming so much info into so many novices, in such a short space of time. Perhaps you enjoy the challenge or something, but wouldn't it make life easier if you could score say an easy million or so once a month using your skills without having to bother with all the other complications involved in setting up seminars and the like?
That' just me Bill, and it's none of my business, is it; but I guess we are all different...
My final point is your students get so much for so little... That is pretty much amazing, considering Aponte's students are asked to pay 6 times as much and his stuff is about only one game. I already nominated you for the Casino Games Hall of Fame. I hope you don't think the nomination was a bit premature. And at your upcoming seminar, I hope you break a leg, as the show-biz saying goes. PS I don't think Scobe is gonna like you spilling his beans about the dice. Have you heard? He has a Sicilian background...
I doubt he stands to learn that much. The guy has extensive knowledge of the gaming industry and advantage play. He's not dumb and knows all of the stuff any amature knows and a lot more. The few people here that might actually be able to tell him something he doesn't know already are smart enough to keep their mouths shut. The rest don't know the secrets to give away.
SP21 was doomed to get coverage like this ever since Walker's book on the topic. You can't reveal something new like that and not expect the industry to react. And you can bet if he didn't know about it before hand he had the book very soon after it was published.
RJT.
SP21 was doomed to get coverage like this ever since Walker's book on the topic. You can't reveal something new like that and not expect the industry to react. And you can bet if he didn't know about it before hand he had the book very soon after it was published.
RJT.
UncrownedKing
Well-Known Member
The information that is relayed through this chat session will only end up in the hands of casino managers.KenSmith said: