darrislance
Well-Known Member
Does anyone know of any teams that are looking for some fresh faces?
Teams?
- Thread starter darrislance
- Start date
Sonny
Well-Known Member
Not at the moment, but here's a link to a discussion about where to look:
http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=2708&highlight=team
-Sonny-
http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=2708&highlight=team
-Sonny-
traynor
Active Member
It would be more reasonable to start your own team. If the response is, "we would need a banker," you are asking a fundamentally different question, involving finance. If you are simply looking for socialization and the possibility of collaborative earnings, it is easier to form your own group.darrislance said:
That is not an off-handed comment. Exisiting teams are usually highly clannish, and discourage allowing outsiders to participate. The basic logic is that is we need more bodies, it is easier to train them outselves than to hire outsiders that we would have to re-train.
Again, that is not an off-handed remark. The average blackjack player has an inflated idea of his or her own skills; the bottom line is that when the individual discovers that he or she cannot earn a decent profit solo, the first inclination is to join a team.
From past experience, I can tell you the first question is going to be, "What can you bring to the table?" If it isn't a sizable bankroll, and proven experience using the same strategy the team uses already, under fire, in casinos, without detection, and successfully, you don't have anything to offer. I don't mean to be rude, or to discourage you; I just want to give you a little reality check.
Playing blackjack is not rocket science. Starting cold, a reasonably intelligent, motivated person can learn to play professional-level blackjack competently in a couple of weeks. That is not basic strategy--that is a multi-level count with all the window dressings of strategy and application.
At the end of that period, the same person is just as capable of going solo, and with a modest amount of luck, never looking back. The idea that you need a bottomless bankroll to win a pittance at blackjack is totally at odds with reality; the players who tend to win tend to win, and the players who tend to lose tend to lose. Whether they are playing solo or with a team.
Bottom line; playing on a team will not improve your chances of winning, any more than it will absolve you of responsibility for losing. Your best chance to get on a successful blackjack team is to prove clearly that you don't need them to make a decent living playing blackjack on your own.
Good Luck
I would just like to start by saying although you do say things that I agree with, much of what you say I think is misleading. I agree with the point of it being difficult to let strangers join the team, if just for the trust factor it takes to have a top team.traynor said:It would be more reasonable to start your own team. If the response is, "we would need a banker," you are asking a fundamentally different question, involving finance. If you are simply looking for socialization and the possibility of collaborative earnings, it is easier to form your own group.
That is not an off-handed comment. Exisiting teams are usually highly clannish, and discourage allowing outsiders to participate. The basic logic is that is we need more bodies, it is easier to train them outselves than to hire outsiders that we would have to re-train.
Again, that is not an off-handed remark. The average blackjack player has an inflated idea of his or her own skills; the bottom line is that when the individual discovers that he or she cannot earn a decent profit solo, the first inclination is to join a team.
From past experience, I can tell you the first question is going to be, "What can you bring to the table?" If it isn't a sizable bankroll, and proven experience using the same strategy the team uses already, under fire, in casinos, without detection, and successfully, you don't have anything to offer. I don't mean to be rude, or to discourage you; I just want to give you a little reality check.
Playing blackjack is not rocket science. Starting cold, a reasonably intelligent, motivated person can learn to play professional-level blackjack competently in a couple of weeks. That is not basic strategy--that is a multi-level count with all the window dressings of strategy and application.
At the end of that period, the same person is just as capable of going solo, and with a modest amount of luck, never looking back. The idea that you need a bottomless bankroll to win a pittance at blackjack is totally at odds with reality; the players who tend to win tend to win, and the players who tend to lose tend to lose. Whether they are playing solo or with a team.
Bottom line; playing on a team will not improve your chances of winning, any more than it will absolve you of responsibility for losing. Your best chance to get on a successful blackjack team is to prove clearly that you don't need them to make a decent living playing blackjack on your own.
Good Luck
As far as what one might bring to the table, its actually better if they have no money to invest at first and just get paid straight players salary instead of investment shares on top of that. As far as trusting an outsiders advantage playing skills, they would never touch one dollar of our bankroll until they passed a series of checkouts earning the right to play in the casino with our team.
As far as having the same advantage playing solo as playing with a highly skilled team, not even close. Aside from the benefit of usually a much bigger bankroll, a well trained team will be able to cover much more of the casino, play more hands, big players with large bets will never see a negative count, using spotters they can flat bet well below the teams betting unit while the big player bets multi units at all times. With this type of play you could easily spread $10 to $2000 with no heat whatsoever. I'm quite sure a solo player would not last 20 minutes playing like that.
Next, I do agree that blackjack is not rocket science, although it was highly intelligent people, some who actually were rocket scientists, that figured out how to beat this game. All we need to do now is copy what those before us already figured out. However, there is no one, I repeat no one, that can play this game at a professional level in just a couple of weeks. At the risk of sounding negative, there are very few who will ever play at such a level. Not because it takes superior intelligence, but because of the time and dedication it takes along with a certain type of mental makeup to really reach that next level of play. Look at it this way, almost all of us played little league baseball as a kid. And although we know how to play baseball, almost everyone of us never played and never will play professional ball. Its the same thing with blackjack, you need to know more than how to play the game, you need to be able to execute the techniques needed to beat this game. Most people believe its all just about adding and subtracting 1. Thats why there are very few successful advantage players out there.
I do agree however that the best way to find yourself getting on a team is already being a successful player. At least that shows you at least know the game and have developed real skills, as opposed to what we refer to as paper skills. Which simply is somebody who has studied every book written on advantage play, played computer blackjack, knows every statistic and percentage from running endless sims, but either crumbles like a cookie in the real game, or has never played even one live hand.
Overall its probably easier to start a team than to try to join one. But if you get the chance to use team play it will only work if all people involved have the same dedication and goals. Otherwise you'll be just defeating the whole concept of team play.
EasyRhino
Well-Known Member
Hey bojack, could I ask two random questions about your team? Hope I won't be asking anything too sensitive.
1) You mention "provisional" players only playing for salary, and not touching bankroll. Are these players still issued money with which to play spotter?
2) How many members are in the team at any given moment? How many members go out on any given trip?
I'm just curious of how the dynamics of a huge, sprawling, team would work out.
1) You mention "provisional" players only playing for salary, and not touching bankroll. Are these players still issued money with which to play spotter?
2) How many members are in the team at any given moment? How many members go out on any given trip?
I'm just curious of how the dynamics of a huge, sprawling, team would work out.
To answer your first question, yes the spotter will be issued money. But not until they have passed checkouts, or tests, that prove to us that they can do what they're supposed to in actual casino conditions. At the end of the trip the money given to them is returned to the bankroll and has no real bearing on their pay. Payment is made when we reach a money goal, that is when we break bank and divide that certain amount up between investors and players. Whats good is at this point the members of the team are the investors, so we get investor shares and player shares when we break bank. Our players shares are all equal because all of our current players are skilled enough to play any position of the team. If some were more skilled than others, they get payed on a scale of proficency. It makes lesser players more motivated to learn more so they can be paid more.EasyRhino said:
As for the second question, there are 5 members on my team, and usually all 5 go on any given trip. Up until recently I wouldn't make the trips to Vegas due to a banning in 2001. But this year it seems I'm lost in the system and, knock on wood, I've been able to make trips there this year without incident.
On occasion we have teamed up with other teams we know to form a team of between 10 and 12, but thats usually just for one night and any profits for that trip are split amongst the teams on terms agreed upon before playing.
I know the bigger teams that have 15 or more players usually break them up into separate groups and play in shifts so the casino is usually being worked every hour the team is on the trip. Thats basically how we do it, others may do it differently, but our style has been successful for us for 11 years now.
kennbenny667
New Member
Do any team members out there think this sudden interest in team-play can be blamed on "Bringing Down the House."
That book made me want to play at "your" level. It made blackjack sexy.
In the end, I'm happy with a few hundred bucks a night and my fat girlfriend:laugh:
More power to you guys though. Maybe someday.
That book made me want to play at "your" level. It made blackjack sexy.
In the end, I'm happy with a few hundred bucks a night and my fat girlfriend:laugh:
More power to you guys though. Maybe someday.
traynor
Active Member
Teams
Bojack1 wrote: "However, there is no one, I repeat no one, that can play this game at a professional level in just a couple of weeks. At the risk of sounding negative, there are very few who will ever play at such a level."
You are wrong on that one (and a few others). It may just be that we have better trainers and coaches than you are accustomed to encountering.
Good Luck
Bojack1 wrote: "However, there is no one, I repeat no one, that can play this game at a professional level in just a couple of weeks. At the risk of sounding negative, there are very few who will ever play at such a level."
You are wrong on that one (and a few others). It may just be that we have better trainers and coaches than you are accustomed to encountering.
Good Luck
Traynor, I seriously doubt that there are many that are on par with those that taught me my craft. They are recognized in the blackjack industry as world class professionals. And they and I scoff at the idea that you could teach a completely inexperienced person how to play like a professional in 2 weeks. As I said before most long time counters don't even come close. I do believe you can learn basic strategy, and a counting system in that time. What I know is, there is no way it could be practically applied in a casino in such a short time. 2 weeks is enough time to grasp the basics, and even then only if you put alot of time and effort into it. From there it takes quite a long time to make the whole process of advantage play second nature like that of a pro. Most people never get it, if they did there would be more professional blackjack players in a casino than people that work there. Out of all people who play blackjack 99% are not advantage players. Out of the 1% that are advantage players, about 1% of them are pros. How many of them are people you taught? I'm not sure what you're selling, but I think its very wrong to mislead someone with a statement that they can play like a professional in 2 weeks. Lets face it, you can't be a professional in any worthwhile field in 2 weeks. Nothing worth a damn comes easy. Like the saying goes, "easy come, easy go." That should be the slogan of a how to play like a pro in 2 week training course.
supercoolmancool
Well-Known Member
Bojack1 said:
One of my friends was able to count in a casino using KO after only 3 days. And KO is just as professional as Hi-Lo.
The reason there are so few pros has nothing to do with card counting being difficult. It is because the casinos kick you out. Camo is the only thing that stops people from playing full-time. I mean a world class card counter has the exact same advantage as I do provided he is not using advanced techniques.
I could practice everyday for the rest of my life and I would still have the same EV.
What is the difference???
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golfnut101
Well-Known Member
whats the difference ?
in one word, its simple...experience. Just as Bojack and others have said, very few have the discipline and tenacity to stick it out and become a elite player. Learning a system in 3 days is one thing; applying it at a high level under intense pressure is another.
in one word, its simple...experience. Just as Bojack and others have said, very few have the discipline and tenacity to stick it out and become a elite player. Learning a system in 3 days is one thing; applying it at a high level under intense pressure is another.
Automatic Monkey
Banned
There's a little more to it than that, and a lot of reasons not to become a full-time pro. One reason often overlooked is that most people who have the talent and discipline to be a successful counter also have the ability to be successful in many other things. I'm an engineer and I refuse to play BJ for a lower win rate than I make as an engineer. But for me to quit my job and play full-time at that same win rate would require an enormous bankroll, and I could put that same bankroll into Treasury bonds and get 5% per annum with no work and no risk. If I was a 41-year old gas station attendant who just inherited a bankroll becoming a full-time pro might seem like a better deal, but if I was 41 and so weak that I've never been able to handle more than a minimum-wage job, what do you think the chances are that I'd be able to handle the life of an AP? Not bloody likely wouldn't you say?supercoolmancool said:
You are right that as your bet goes up, so does the heat. But a straight counter can support himself with a $300 max bet if he has the work ethic and that kind of bet will be tolerated in many places. Then again- if you have a work ethic there are many other attractive options for life that don't involve sitting in a room full of filth and smoke and being abused.
My conclusion is that what keeps people from becoming full-time pros is not difficulty counting or heat, but just the economics of the game that rightfully discourage many very intelligent people from making that choice.
Automatic Monkey said:
I agree with everything "AM" is saying here. Also family life is one thing. Being a full time AP would be pretty difficult if you have a wife and kids. I can only play about two days a week and still maintain some sanity at home. Advantage Play is a GREAT part time job for me, but I would NOT want to do this full time. If I had a 100k br and was single, it might be a different story. I couldnt imagine relying 100% on gambling income, or playing 100+hours without a dime of profit (which happens sometimes)
traynor
Active Member
Bojack1 said:
If your trip through life is relatively trivial, blackjack may seem an intimidating undertaking. To people accustomed to such incidental "job demands" as mastering a new software application in a weekend sufficiently enough to start writing technical documentation for that application on Monday morning (at a VERY nice contracting rate) it is pretty simple stuff. If you have ever encountered a CCIE and have any idea of what their certification testing is like, or what is involved, you would understand it a bit more clearly.
As for what I'm "selling," it has nothing whatsoever to do with blackjack. You seem to equate time with value; that may have been true 30 years ago, but this is 2006. The old, slow, ponderous "learning methods" of talking heads and endless practice are mostly for the old folk who can't (or won't) do any better.
At no time did I say it was "easy." Nor that the average truck driver or office hack could master blackjack in that period of time.
Good Luck
traynor
Active Member
While the scenario straight out of "Million Dollar Blackjack" might impress the newbies and wannabes, it doesn't impress me in the least. Since John Luckman fingered Uston, that whole "Big Player" trip is best played out in fantasy; in the real world, it can get people in more trouble than they can handle. You might pull it off for awhile in some Native American casino in backwater wherever, but it ain't gonna fly for anything more than nickel and dime play anywhere else.Bojack1 said:
Do you actually play, or do you just write about it? There seems to be a serious disconnect between your exposition and reality. While playing guru to a group of wannabe "team members" may stroke your ego, I think it would be in the best interest of prospective team players to understand two things:
1) Most newbies can earn more by fingering the team members (and other teams socially interacting with those team members) to the casinos than by playing on a team. (In particular, watch out for the UNLV co-eds who show up at the tables in Vegas whenever substantial bets are being made.)
2) The consequences of being caught collaborating with other players may be a bit more serious than a polite invitation to take your business elsewhere. The issue is serious enough that no professional blackjack team is going to take on rookies as "spotters."
Your writing seems more intent on positioning yourself as an "authority" on blackjack, rather than on playing. You remind me of the olden times, when Specs Revere was one of my instructors, and the silly little man from Ontario made such a big show of being "banned from a casino" because of his "expertise." Just to be sure he could use it in his book, he loudly proclaimed, "Are you saying that I am being barred from this casino because of my expert blackjack playing skills?" I'm sure you have encountered Igor somewhere along the way.
Uston actually got off easy. When he got tossed down the stairs, the only thing broken was his arm.
Good Luck
I must say I'm a bit surprised and than in the same token maybe not quite so much at the reaction to this post.
supercoolmancool, I'm sure your friend learned KO and counted in a casino 3 days later. As a matter of fact I see people like that all the time. I see new counters who can count, have an unrealistic unit, overbet, and have no clue about variations to basic strategy due to the count. I see novice counters chase losses abandoning all they know with the excuse they'll go back to it later, or to afraid to trust their system with a large bet when it calls for it because they have been taking a beating all night. Its very easy to spot a new counter and I don't care who you are, you will not be experienced enough in just 3 days to hide it if someone cares enough to look for it. You're right in saying disguising your play will be one thing that separates most from a seasoned pro. But thats no small thing, your E.V. will be zero if you can't play.
Now something I mentioned on another board I will mention here. Most counters are not as good as they think they are. I know that might offend some, and its not meant to, but its true. A friend of mine travels the country giving group and private blackjack seminars. He has met with and taught thousands advantage play. His findings have been the majority of people he trains are at or just above novice level. When put into just mock casino conditions they make so many mistakes it destroys any advantage they thought they had. And the worse thing about it is they have no idea. Because they crank up the CVBJ drills and make so few or even no mistakes they think its all good. He basically told me most people write off so many losing sessions to standard deviation and never play a winning game because they are unaware of how poorly they are playing. So forgive me if I take alot of advantage play braggarts with a grain of salt. This is not directly meant for anyone on this board, but I'm sure unknowingly that some fall into this category.
I hear people saying they would or could be a pro blackjack player if they had a huge bankroll, or didn't have a family, or (fill in your excuse here). Well I must tell you I didn't always have a huge bankroll, but I built it up through playing. I own a home and have a wonderful woman that I share it with, no kids but plenty of pets. I've been able to make some great investments with money earned through blackjack that has become quite a supplement to my income, which actually could support me quite comfortably should my playing days abruptly come to an end.
The reason most people don't play this game professionally is because they can't, not because they choose not to. It takes more than money. Money is easy enough to get once you get good enough. But what you can't teach is balls, heart, and unwavering confidence in yourself and your system. Oh yeah, and you better pick up and master a few advanced techniques if you want some longevity at a high level of play. Anyway good luck to all who try to play with an advantage, and please understand no offense was meant in any of my comments.
supercoolmancool, I'm sure your friend learned KO and counted in a casino 3 days later. As a matter of fact I see people like that all the time. I see new counters who can count, have an unrealistic unit, overbet, and have no clue about variations to basic strategy due to the count. I see novice counters chase losses abandoning all they know with the excuse they'll go back to it later, or to afraid to trust their system with a large bet when it calls for it because they have been taking a beating all night. Its very easy to spot a new counter and I don't care who you are, you will not be experienced enough in just 3 days to hide it if someone cares enough to look for it. You're right in saying disguising your play will be one thing that separates most from a seasoned pro. But thats no small thing, your E.V. will be zero if you can't play.
Now something I mentioned on another board I will mention here. Most counters are not as good as they think they are. I know that might offend some, and its not meant to, but its true. A friend of mine travels the country giving group and private blackjack seminars. He has met with and taught thousands advantage play. His findings have been the majority of people he trains are at or just above novice level. When put into just mock casino conditions they make so many mistakes it destroys any advantage they thought they had. And the worse thing about it is they have no idea. Because they crank up the CVBJ drills and make so few or even no mistakes they think its all good. He basically told me most people write off so many losing sessions to standard deviation and never play a winning game because they are unaware of how poorly they are playing. So forgive me if I take alot of advantage play braggarts with a grain of salt. This is not directly meant for anyone on this board, but I'm sure unknowingly that some fall into this category.
I hear people saying they would or could be a pro blackjack player if they had a huge bankroll, or didn't have a family, or (fill in your excuse here). Well I must tell you I didn't always have a huge bankroll, but I built it up through playing. I own a home and have a wonderful woman that I share it with, no kids but plenty of pets. I've been able to make some great investments with money earned through blackjack that has become quite a supplement to my income, which actually could support me quite comfortably should my playing days abruptly come to an end.
The reason most people don't play this game professionally is because they can't, not because they choose not to. It takes more than money. Money is easy enough to get once you get good enough. But what you can't teach is balls, heart, and unwavering confidence in yourself and your system. Oh yeah, and you better pick up and master a few advanced techniques if you want some longevity at a high level of play. Anyway good luck to all who try to play with an advantage, and please understand no offense was meant in any of my comments.
traynor said:While the scenario straight out of "Million Dollar Blackjack" might impress the newbies and wannabes, it doesn't impress me in the least. Since John Luckman fingered Uston, that whole "Big Player" trip is best played out in fantasy; in the real world, it can get people in more trouble than they can handle. You might pull it off for awhile in some Native American casino in backwater wherever, but it ain't gonna fly for anything more than nickel and dime play anywhere else.
Do you actually play, or do you just write about it? There seems to be a serious disconnect between your exposition and reality. While playing guru to a group of wannabe "team members" may stroke your ego, I think it would be in the best interest of prospective team players to understand two things:
1) Most newbies can earn more by fingering the team members (and other teams socially interacting with those team members) to the casinos than by playing on a team. (In particular, watch out for the UNLV co-eds who show up at the tables in Vegas whenever substantial bets are being made.)
2) The consequences of being caught collaborating with other players may be a bit more serious than a polite invitation to take your business elsewhere. The issue is serious enough that no professional blackjack team is going to take on rookies as "spotters."
Your writing seems more intent on positioning yourself as an "authority" on blackjack, rather than on playing. You remind me of the olden times, when Specs Revere was one of my instructors, and the silly little man from Ontario made such a big show of being "banned from a casino" because of his "expertise." Just to be sure he could use it in his book, he loudly proclaimed, "Are you saying that I am being barred from this casino because of my expert blackjack playing skills?" I'm sure you have encountered Igor somewhere along the way.
Uston actually got off easy. When he got tossed down the stairs, the only thing broken was his arm.
Good Luck
Wow, you dont know who you are talking to. Bojack1 has supported himself playing blackjack for over 10 years. He and his team have probably made more money than anyone else on this message board. He is skilled in many other techniques beyond basic card counting.