Teams?

[Cass]

You seem to equate time with value; that may have been true 30 years ago, but this is 2006. The old, slow, ponderous "learning methods" of talking heads and endless practice are mostly for the old folk who can't (or won't) do any better.

who doesnt equate time with value? Thats how I make most my financial decisions, or just life decisions in general. Example: I could change my own oil in my car. It costs me $12 for the filter and the oil compared to $25 at the local in/out shop. It might take me a half hour or more to get my car on the jack stands, change oil and filter. Not to mention i have to drive to the store to buy the crap, and then I have to bring it somewhere to dispose of it(if i dont just pour out the old oil my backyard ). To me it makes sense to pay someone to do that job.

 

[Bojack1]

Wow Traynor I failed to see your posts before I posted my last one. I will tell you this although you see it fit to basically insult people with the whole trivial life comment, and brag about your job demands and the elite level of intelligence it takes to make your "very nice contracting rate", I see it fit to talk about blackjack. I've never tried to impress anyone with monetary amounts, or my thoughts on blackjack. And while I've never read Million Dollar Blackjack it does not surprise me that my ideas on playing may be similar. I've never claimed to have invented this way of playing, its been around a while, I just use it to its full potential.

My training comes from MIT and the people who took this type of play to a different level. And I would venture to say that they may rival your ability to master new software applications as quickly as even your superior intellect. And at the same time know a thing or two about blackjack.

By the way I was never banned from a casino for my play, it was more for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Again I never brag about my playing prowess or money, at this point the same cannot be said of you. I also do not proclaim myself an authority, and I'm not writing a book or selling a thing, again something you cannot claim.

If your opinion on how to play the game of blackjack is different than mine so be it, but I've played the way I've described full time for almost 12 years now, with never a losing year, I think I'll stand.

 

[traynor]

Wow Traynor I failed to see your posts before I posted my last one. I will tell you this although you see it fit to basically insult people with the whole trivial life comment, and brag about your job demands and the elite level of intelligence it takes to make your "very nice contracting rate", I see it fit to talk about blackjack. I've never tried to impress anyone with monetary amounts, or my thoughts on blackjack. And while I've never read Million Dollar Blackjack it does not surprise me that my ideas on playing may be similar. I've never claimed to have invented this way of playing, its been around a while, I just use it to its full potential.

That's a surprise. Ken Uston just about invented the "big player" role.

My training comes from MIT and the people who took this type of play to a different level.

What was your major at MIT? And when did you attend? I didn't realize they taught blackjack at MIT. Or do you mean you read a book or took a course from someone who claimed to have attended MIT?

And I would venture to say that they may rival your ability to master new software applications as quickly as even your superior intellect. And at the same time know a thing or two about blackjack.

Not "my" ability--the ability of hundreds of thousands of highly competent, motivated people who consider the "fine points of professional play" at blackjack fairly simple stuff in comparison to what they do on a daily basis in school or at work. The average skater with a new videogame learns, processes information, and masters intricate sequences and processes at a rate that alarms most people over 30. That is not insulting--it is meant to be respectful of what is essentially a new learning paradigm created by interacting with computers from childhood.

By the way I was never banned from a casino for my play, it was more for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Again I never brag about my playing prowess or money, at this point the same cannot be said of you.

I missed that one. Where do I brag about MY prowess (or money)??? I made a statement that many people in this world consider "professional level play at blackjack" relatively trivial, and have managed to bypass years of adoring worship at the feet of the Great Ones and cut straight to the making money part. We are talking about a card game, not the decay of satellite orbits.

I also do not proclaim myself an authority, and I'm not writing a book or selling a thing, again something you cannot claim.

Do you have a problem processing basic information? Or is English not your native language? What I sell has nothing whatsoever to do with blackjack. How much plainer does it get than that? Or do you object to the entire idea of someone offering services or products for sale, regardless of what they may be?


If your opinion on how to play the game of blackjack is different than mine so be it, but I've played the way I've described full time for almost 12 years now, with never a losing year, I think I'll stand.

That is interesting. I think everyone would be fascinated to know where you manage to play full-time with a team as a Big Player, and for what kind of stakes. Most of the professionals I know are not grinders; they play on average of a week or less a month--hardly enough to qualify as "full-time." Team players typically only do weekends and play in a new city each time (not just a new casino). They do well.
Good Luck

 

[bigbjfan]

I've been learning, practicing, and playing BJ for a year now and being able to memorize BS and count accurately in a casino environment took longer than I expected. Granted I have a family to devote time to but it's still been a lot of work.

I've been reading Bojack1's posts in recent months and have learned a lot from what he's had to say. He lets his play do the talking and I believe he's one of only a handful of players that can use AP at such a high level. The MIT players took playing techniques and team play to a new level and his posts have confirmed that he knows his stuff.

 

[Bojack1]

OkayTraynor, last post directed to you little fella as you are becoming quite a bore.

1. Ken Uston did not invent the big player role, he was taught it by Al Francesco and was part of his team. During the middle of their playing days Uston who was an egomaniacal drug addict, wrote a book on what they were doing and, and basically ruined the relationship and is considered a rat by some in the industry. He is known for his ego and charisma and large losses, his reputation of greatness comes more from the company he kept and ideas he "borrowed" from them to publish on his own.

2. I was never enrolled at MIT. I did however graduate from Columbia University. While I was there I was friends with someone who went on to MIT to get his masters. He was the one who told me about the blackjack being played at MIT. And yes they did actually teach blackjack at MIT. They had a blackjack club that morphed into an actual legal entity called Strategic Investments. It was the first of what people would refer to as the "MIT blackjack teams". Although it did well they eventually lost all their money due to high degrees of varience using some advanced techniques, and the training had become lax and the team watered down. From there the 2 famous teams that they wrote books about emerged, and with stricter playing guidelines and training, they became highly successful and did not lose all their money. The original friend that introduced me to all this I no longer speak with, but 3 others I still keep in contact with and still see occasionally.

3. I will not engage you in tit for tat arguments on what was really meant in your condecending way of wording your messages. If you believe your just trying to relay the simplicity of blackjack compared to some peoples everyday jobs and schooling than fine I accept that. The premise of learning how to play blackjack is elementary, the practical application for most is not.

4. My grasp on the english language is just fine. I think you should check your comprehensive skills, I never said you were selling anything about blackjack, I did say you were selling something, and you are. I have no problem with that, but I do take offense to the implication that I am like others who state things for either status reasons or to sell a book.

5. As much as everyone might want to know where I play, even you should know its not really wise to divulge too much. I will say I have played in 24 states, and 3 different countries. As far as I know just about every state has casinos now and more are popping up all the time. There is never a reason to not have a place to play if you are willing to travel. I will tell you this we only play Vegas on average 6 times a year. And by the way I am not always the big player, in certain places I am, but in many others I am not. And as you stated in your post the teams you know that move around do well, no kidding.

6. This is it I will offer no more information about mysef to you, or really acknowledge your rather inane comments. I find internet arguments ridiculous, and no matter what is said it will not change anything. I like these blackjack boards to read and discuss things about just that, blackjack, and along the way maybe some other interesting bits of information. So with that being said I say goodbye to you and good luck in all your ventures.

 

[Sonny]

Boy, it's a good thing the Grifter isn't moderating these posts! :laugh:

Sometimes the truth hurts. Luckily, I've been slapped by some of the smartest folks around.

-Sonny-

 

[traynor]

OkayTraynor, last post directed to you little fella as you are becoming quite a bore.

1. Ken Uston did not invent the big player role, he was taught it by Al Francesco and was part of his team. During the middle of their playing days Uston who was an egomaniacal drug addict, wrote a book on what they were doing and, and basically ruined the relationship and is considered a rat by some in the industry. He is known for his ego and charisma and large losses, his reputation of greatness comes more from the company he kept and ideas he "borrowed" from them to publish on his own.

2. I was never enrolled at MIT. I did however graduate from Columbia University. While I was there I was friends with someone who went on to MIT to get his masters. He was the one who told me about the blackjack being played at MIT. And yes they did actually teach blackjack at MIT. They had a blackjack club that morphed into an actual legal entity called Strategic Investments. It was the first of what people would refer to as the "MIT blackjack teams". Although it did well they eventually lost all their money due to high degrees of varience using some advanced techniques, and the training had become lax and the team watered down. From there the 2 famous teams that they wrote books about emerged, and with stricter playing guidelines and training, they became highly successful and did not lose all their money. The original friend that introduced me to all this I no longer speak with, but 3 others I still keep in contact with and still see occasionally.

3. I will not engage you in tit for tat arguments on what was really meant in your condecending way of wording your messages. If you believe your just trying to relay the simplicity of blackjack compared to some peoples everyday jobs and schooling than fine I accept that. The premise of learning how to play blackjack is elementary, the practical application for most is not.

4. My grasp on the english language is just fine. I think you should check your comprehensive skills, I never said you were selling anything about blackjack, I did say you were selling something, and you are. I have no problem with that, but I do take offense to the implication that I am like others who state things for either status reasons or to sell a book.

5. As much as everyone might want to know where I play, even you should know its not really wise to divulge too much. I will say I have played in 24 states, and 3 different countries. As far as I know just about every state has casinos now and more are popping up all the time. There is never a reason to not have a place to play if you are willing to travel. I will tell you this we only play Vegas on average 6 times a year. And by the way I am not always the big player, in certain places I am, but in many others I am not. And as you stated in your post the teams you know that move around do well, no kidding.

6. This is it I will offer no more information about mysef to you, or really acknowledge your rather inane comments. I find internet arguments ridiculous, and no matter what is said it will not change anything. I like these blackjack boards to read and discuss things about just that, blackjack, and along the way maybe some other interesting bits of information. So with that being said I say goodbye to you and good luck in all your ventures.

I didn't know we were arguing. I thought we were discussing realities of blackjack. Because I have not read all your postings, I have only the limited responses you have made on this thread to go by. Those postings indicate rather strongly that you like to pontificate, to be considered the "expert" (whether that role is earned, assumed, or just grabbed because no one else wanted it), and to resolve differences through obfuscation.

The original "difference of opinion" concerned taking on novices in a blackjack team. In this post, you comment: "As much as everyone might want to know where I play, even you should know its not really wise to divulge too much." I agree completely. I think even more emphatically that divulging not only your plans, itinerary, and methods, but your identities and (by extension) those of other teams of your acquaintance, to a novice team wannabe, demonstrates either a lack of real world playing skills (or very poor judgement) on your part.

Finally, you wrote: "And yes they did actually teach blackjack at MIT. They had a blackjack club that morphed into an actual legal entity called Strategic Investments. It was the first of what people would refer to as the "MIT blackjack teams". " That is pure obfuscation for those either too lazy or too ignorant to process what you are saying, prefering instead to blindly accept what it seems you are saying. MIT has never had a course in blackjack. What students or faculty do in their non-academic endeavors is irrelevant; it is not connected directly to MIT.

Good Luck

 

[Bojack1]

I didn't know we were arguing. I thought we were discussing realities of blackjack. Because I have not read all your postings, I have only the limited responses you have made on this thread to go by. Those postings indicate rather strongly that you like to pontificate, to be considered the "expert" (whether that role is earned, assumed, or just grabbed because no one else wanted it), and to resolve differences through obfuscation.

The original "difference of opinion" concerned taking on novices in a blackjack team. In this post, you comment: "As much as everyone might want to know where I play, even you should know its not really wise to divulge too much." I agree completely. I think even more emphatically that divulging not only your plans, itinerary, and methods, but your identities and (by extension) those of other teams of your acquaintance, to a novice team wannabe, demonstrates either a lack of real world playing skills (or very poor judgement) on your part.

Finally, you wrote: "And yes they did actually teach blackjack at MIT. They had a blackjack club that morphed into an actual legal entity called Strategic Investments. It was the first of what people would refer to as the "MIT blackjack teams". " That is pure obfuscation for those either too lazy or too ignorant to process what you are saying, prefering instead to blindly accept what it seems you are saying. MIT has never had a course in blackjack. What students or faculty do in their non-academic endeavors is irrelevant; it is not connected directly to MIT.

Good Luck

I will not engage in debate with you with this topic any longer, If you would like to share some real knowledge of the game, that would be helpful. If not than its nothing more than childish banter that adds nothing to the board, and I'm sorry to those that read these posts that this was nothing but a waste of your time.

Just to make one thing clear, I never said MIT had a course in blackjack, I said they taught blackjack there. Which they physically did, on the MIT campus, in the same building where you took regular classes, and taught by former and at the time current faculty, to mostly MIT students with a few others mixed in. Although it was of course not an accredited class, I know of no other university that has ever offered such a program. I don't think insulting people is the right way of trying to clear up what to you seemed an unclear point, but I figured I would do so anyway for those that don't quite have the two dollar vocabulary words to express themselves.

 

[traynor]

I will not engage in debate with you with this topic any longer, If you would like to share some real knowledge of the game, that would be helpful. If not than its nothing more than childish banter that adds nothing to the board, and I'm sorry to those that read these posts that this was nothing but a waste of your time.

Just to make one thing clear, I never said MIT had a course in blackjack, I said they taught blackjack there. Which they physically did, on the MIT campus, in the same building where you took regular classes, and taught by former and at the time current faculty, to mostly MIT students with a few others mixed in. Although it was of course not an accredited class, I know of no other university that has ever offered such a program. I don't think insulting people is the right way of trying to clear up what to you seemed an unclear point, but I figured I would do so anyway for those that don't quite have the two dollar vocabulary words to express themselves.

No insult was intended, simply a request for clarity. Professional-level blackjack requires precision; ambiguity and obfuscation in language implies an equivalent disregard for precision in other matters. Again, no insult was intended; my concern was with casual readers who may not bother to process information critically, and jump to conclusions believing something was stated, when in fact it was only suggested.
Good Luck

 

[jimpenn]

I agree with Bojack, Golfnut and AutoMonkey's remarks concerning economics. In my opinion, table time is more important than the amount of time taken to learn BS and counting. SuperCool said, "casinos kick you out." He's right, but that is where the table time comes into play. Hours in the field are necessary to establish the ability to maintain cover, the balls to make large bets under pressure (like being down a few thousand) and continue to send $400 bets with high counts. The bottom line is there is wisdom with age, and I would be willing to bet that Bojack learned more from playing time than he has from reading any book. In closing, I also believe Grifter would have shortened this thread in lighting speed. He does not tolerate "Forum AP's" because he's been there and watched them one-by-one come and go for many years.

 

[traynor]

I agree with Bojack, Golfnut and AutoMonkey's remarks concerning economics. In my opinion, table time is more important than the amount of time taken to learn BS and counting. SuperCool said, "casinos kick you out." He's right, but that is where the table time comes into play. Hours in the field are necessary to establish the ability to maintain cover, the balls to make large bets under pressure (like being down a few thousand) and continue to send $400 bets with high counts. The bottom line is there is wisdom with age, and I would be willing to bet that Bojack learned more from playing time than he has from reading any book. In closing, I also believe Grifter would have shortened this thread in lighting speed. He does not tolerate "Forum AP's" because he's been there and watched them one-by-one come and go for many years.

Which may explain why there are so many on this forum who are hobbyists and casual players, rather than serious bettors. There is nothing whatsoever wrong with playing blackjack recreationally; the only problem arises when the recreational player imagines himself or herself capable of playing full-time and earning a substantial income in casinos, and commits unreplaceable resources in pursuit of that mistaken belief. The bottom line is that it is easier to play the expert on a forum than to earn a living in the real world with that expertise.

"Table time" is only useful when the experience is additive, not simply repetitive. Practicing poor strategy repeatedly does not improve one's ability to make strategic dcecisions, and experience--in most cases--is a poor teacher. Consider it the equivalent of driving to work and the supermarket in your family vehicle; while useful for what it is, it doesn't really prepare you to drive in a NASCAR race (or even a relatively easy European sports car rally). All it does is prepare you to drive to work and the supermarket.

As one coed in an MBA class put it, "Being older doesn't necessarily make you smarter or more capable. It just makes you older."
Good Luck

 

[jimpenn]

Good Post...I don't think I have ever been on a trip where I haven't observed or learned something that would enhance my game in the future. I'm sure I miss critical learning situations at times, but generally I add some amo for next outing.

Best,

 

[traynor]

Good Post...I don't think I have ever been on a trip where I haven't observed or learned something that would enhance my game in the future. I'm sure I miss critical learning situations at times, but generally I add some amo for next outing.

Best,

That is exactly my point; a "critical" state of mind and awareness is entirely different than "logging hours at the table." There is way too much tendency in people (not just at blackjack) to believe that simply doing something over and over increases their skill level. Real learning is an intense, "mindful" activity (or at least it should be, because it is way more efficient than rote drills) that is difficult for many to maintain for extended periods. It shouldn't be. However, if you are not accustomed to such learning, it can take a while to wrap your head around it. The effort is well rewarded.
Good Luck

 

[sagefr0g]

That is exactly my point; a "critical" state of mind and awareness is entirely different than "logging hours at the table." There is way too much tendency in people (not just at blackjack) to believe that simply doing something over and over increases their skill level. Real learning is an intense, "mindful" activity (or at least it should be, because it is way more efficient than rote drills) that is difficult for many to maintain for extended periods. It shouldn't be. However, if you are not accustomed to such learning, it can take a while to wrap your head around it. The effort is well rewarded.
Good Luck

i hope your right about the effort being well rewarded. i have that critical thinking thing going for myself. i think overall it's helped my improvement as a rec/ap and yet that critical 'processing' (ie. mindful activity) has a way of getting in the way durring practice sessions and live play. kind of slows me down and introduces a sense of confusion or uncertainty that inhibits decisions and actions i should be making on autopilot so to speak. probably this sort of things comes with the territory for ole folks such as myself

best regards,
mr fr0g

 

[Preston]

That is exactly my point; a "critical" state of mind and awareness is entirely different than "logging hours at the table." There is way too much tendency in people (not just at blackjack) to believe that simply doing something over and over increases their skill level. Real learning is an intense, "mindful" activity (or at least it should be, because it is way more efficient than rote drills) that is difficult for many to maintain for extended periods. It shouldn't be. However, if you are not accustomed to such learning, it can take a while to wrap your head around it. The effort is well rewarded.
Good Luck

A quote comes to mind.. don't remember where I heard/read it.. or exactly how it went but it was of the line of "Practice doesn't make perfect. Only perfect practice makes perfect."

I think that's a good philosophy to go by. that is why accuracy is more important than speed initially... just my opinion.

 

[Bojack1]

The past few posts really just reinforce what I've been saying all along. You need to educate yourself on advantage play before you can use it. Yes you need to practice, and of course you need to practice correctly. I would think thats a given, but if it needs to be stated, well then there it is. Thats exactly our reasoning for player checkouts. Its a constant gauge of how well players can perform their tasks in the casino. If they don't pass they don't play. That way in reference to traynor's analogy, we don't send Sunday drivers out onto the Nascar track. Nobody's inventing the wheel here. This is common sense. Thats why its good to either have other people with you when your practicing to check that its being done correctly, or invest in software that allows you to play, all the while tracking you to check and keep record of your mistakes.

But I still stand firm that being perfect in practice does not always translate into perfect live play. As humans we are capable of great things, we also can be controlled by emotion and the psychological. As most all of us know, some things come very easy with no pressure, some things that we are very skilled and accomplished at, but add the pressure of an audience or public scrutiny and our talents sometimes fall by the wayside. A perfectly pitched singing voice in the shower, may crack and be completely off key in front of a crowd. Or an extremely well researched and written report, may sound like nonsense when asked to stand up and actually present it in a board meeting. But in these circumstances, as well as in blackjack, with actually putting yourself in the live conditions regularly, if you have practiced well, your talents will than become evident. Basically reinforcing my belief that it takes quite a bit more time than a couple of weeks to play blackjack at a professional level.

 

[traynor]

The past few posts really just reinforce what I've been saying all along. You need to educate yourself on advantage play before you can use it. Yes you need to practice, and of course you need to practice correctly. I would think thats a given, but if it needs to be stated, well then there it is. Thats exactly our reasoning for player checkouts. Its a constant gauge of how well players can perform their tasks in the casino. If they don't pass they don't play. That way in reference to traynor's analogy, we don't send Sunday drivers out onto the Nascar track. Nobody's inventing the wheel here. This is common sense. Thats why its good to either have other people with you when your practicing to check that its being done correctly, or invest in software that allows you to play, all the while tracking you to check and keep record of your mistakes.

But I still stand firm that being perfect in practice does not always translate into perfect live play. As humans we are capable of great things, we also can be controlled by emotion and the psychological. As most all of us know, some things come very easy with no pressure, some things that we are very skilled and accomplished at, but add the pressure of an audience or public scrutiny and our talents sometimes fall by the wayside. A perfectly pitched singing voice in the shower, may crack and be completely off key in front of a crowd. Or an extremely well researched and written report, may sound like nonsense when asked to stand up and actually present it in a board meeting. But in these circumstances, as well as in blackjack, with actually putting yourself in the live conditions regularly, if you have practiced well, your talents will than become evident. Basically reinforcing my belief that it takes quite a bit more time than a couple of weeks to play blackjack at a professional level.

I agree with you almost completely. The problems arise in that "conventional" teaching (and learning) methods are inefficient. It is possible to practice for long periods to little effect. What you describe is the result of "non-contextual rehearsal." In that sense, it is more efficient to "practice" in a casino than at the kitchen table. However, that only applies to conventional methods of teaching.

There are other, more efficient ways to learn, and other, more efficient ways to teach. By using some of those methods, professional-level blackjack playing skills can be acquired fairly simply. That assumes a high level of motivation, a willingness to learn, and, even more important, a willingness to abandon the old, broken learning paradigm that says "if you don't suffer and bleed for years, it has to be trivial." It doesn't.

In any event, Bojack 1, I am glad that you stuck around to voice your opinions. They are not that different than mine. And I am even more glad that others have contributed their opinions and insights. That is what a forum is supposed to accomplish.

And to sagefrOg: You are absolutely correct; "mindfulness" is essential to both learning and application of professional-level blackjack skills. Your efforts will be rewarded. The trick is pull off the old zen trip of "doing without thinking." In more conventional terms, the periods of concentration and mindfulness should be in the training, so the responses in application are so thoroughly internalized they seem "automatic."
Good Luck

 

[traynor]

Learning Blackjack

For anyone actually interested in learning professional level blackjack, it is imperative to be able to objectively evaluate his or her own skills. Unfortunately, this is no small task. Psychologists argue that "self-assessment" is the least effective way to evaluate skills, because of self-serving biases.

There is a really interesting article on the topic available online from the APA (American Psychological Association), called, "Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments."

Link below:
(Dead link: http://www.apa.org/journals/features/psp7761121.pdf)

Good Luck

 

[sagefr0g]

And to sagefrOg: You are absolutely correct; "mindfulness" is essential to both learning and application of professional-level blackjack skills. Your efforts will be rewarded. The trick is pull off the old zen trip of "doing without thinking." In more conventional terms, the periods of concentration and mindfulness should be in the training, so the responses in application are so thoroughly internalized they seem "automatic."
Good Luck

unfortunately i haven't got 'there' yet. i think what holds me back is fearfullness and my controlling nature.

best regards,
mr fr0g

 

[Sonny]

There are other, more efficient ways to learn, and other, more efficient ways to teach. By using some of those methods, professional-level blackjack playing skills can be acquired fairly simply. That assumes a high level of motivation, a willingness to learn, and, even more important, a willingness to abandon the old, broken learning paradigm that says "if you don't suffer and bleed for years, it has to be trivial." It doesn't.

Well said. Do you have any advice or sources for more info on better teaching and learning methods?

-Sonny-