Research on Spanish 21?

I'm sure most people have seen Spanish 21... its a blackjack game that offers lots of bonuses for certain hands (like 3:1 for a 6-7-8) and the other lure for the game is that it allows you to double down at any time. But the one big drawback is that it removes the 10's (not Jacks, Queens, or Kings... just 10's) from the deck. I've actually heard that this game offers a relatively low house edge when playing its correct basic strategy.

Has anyone done any research on this game and know the correct basic strategy or the house edge for a 6 deck game? Just curious if this game is worth my time.

http://wizardofodds.com/spanish21

Check this link to the Wizard of Odds' take on the game, along with his strategy charts. According to him, if the rules are right, it has a very narrow house edge with proper strategy. I also read another author who really liked it, maybe better than blackjack, but I can't remember who that was.

I have never played this in a casino; but after reading the Wizaerd's take and practicing a little online, I may try it soon.

I have done really well with SuperFun21, which has a higher than normal house edge. It has many of the same features as Spanish 21, but with naturals paying only even money. The bonuses and the 3:2 naturals apparently more than make up for the removal of the tens.

Thanks for the link

Very interesting... thanks. It seems like I would be at a less house advantage by playing this game than the normal blackjack game I play < lol >. I wonder if we could implement counting into this game, but I'm guessing it would be pretty difficult with 6-8 decks. The only other question I have is whether BJ's are paid 3:2 in this game? I couldn't seem to find the answer to that question in the link you gave.

On another note, has anyone ever brought a strategy card to the table with you? Is this frowned upon or encouraged? I may want to try this if I sit down at a Spanish 21 table since the basic strategy is pretty bizarre.

JJcoolL830 said:

On another note, has anyone ever brought a strategy card to the table with you? Is this frowned upon or encouraged? I may want to try this if I sit down at a Spanish 21 table since the basic strategy is pretty bizarre.

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Most casinos in Vegas do not mind you useing a Strategy card at the table. Oh, they might give you some evil looks if you are slowing the play down by taking a lot of time to read the card on every hand, but generally, they do not mind.

I would ask the dealer before using one though just to play it safe.

Several of the Indian Casinos I've frequented do NOT allow the cards. Never understood that. Seems that they would want to encourage new players.

Native Americans

I normally don't play at our local indian casino since their BJ game is so brutal (8 decks, H17, double on any 2 but no DAS... approximately a .87% casino edge ) but my friend is in town and loves the glitz and glamour of the monstrosity they have built, so I go with him. I was looking to try something new since I simply can't win at that type of BJ game. I will let you know if the natives let me play with the card.

Naturals do pay 3:2 in Spanish 21. The rules that the Wizard says are the most important are standing on soft 17 and allowing double double down. Without those, I think it is about the same as a fairly standard regular blackjack game.

I am near Mohegan Sun; and they have loads of Spanish 21 tables. I am not sure what their rules are; but I may just check it out next time I'm there.

Counting for Spanish 21?

I've been currently wondering if counting cards in Spanish 21 is useful? Since they remove the tens I was thinking about devising a sort of modified Hi-Lo and setting card values 3,4,5,6 as -1 and J,Q,K,A as +1.

I'm wondering if positive counts create an advantage to the player in this game or if removing the 10's from the deck already leaves you at such a disadvantage for double downs and blackjacks that counting is a waste of time. I know that the dealer's probability of busting will increase with more high cards in the deck, and with the option of doubling down more than once or after you original two cards it would be advantageous to know when there are more high cards in the deck.

The only problem I see with this idea is that Spanish 21 offers bonuses for 5,6,7+ card 21's. The probability of receiving these bonuses decreases with more high cards in the deck... so is the game actually more advantageous with more low cards in the deck?!! I am so confused. Feedback would be helpful.

I'm not really a counter; and for some reason, I have the impression that most counters don't play this game. So this is only a guess on my part. I'd say that the way to count this would be with an unbalanced count (Red 7 or KO) and just adjust the pivot to compensate for the tens that are removed. So with Red 7, instead of -2 per deck as a starting point, you'd use -6 per deck. In fact, I'm guessing that if you had half those tens back, it would be enough to swing the advantage your way. So you could use -4 per deck.

I'm not sure there is any way to track the bonuses, other than maybe a side count of 7s. But you do have to account for the bonuses in basic strategy. For example, you would want to hit 7-7 instead of split, and you'd want to hit 7-8 instead of standing. But I think the strategy charts at the Wizard of Odds site cover that, along with hitting for the multi-card bonuses.

even if spanish21 may have a better edge for the player I don't have it in me to memorize another BS for a different game. I only recently mastered the BS for BJ

I'm probably like most people on this site who plays BJ just for fun and to make a couple to a few hundred dollars in pocket money. Sometimes I win and sometimes I lose, in any case whatever I lost I can afford. As you can tell from my lack of motivation to elevate my games I don't have any future plans to use my BJ winnings as a second income cause thats not the life for me

Since this discussion, which I had actually forgotten about, I have tried Spanish 21 in a real casino. The thread coming back up reminded me of what I'd said here previously about not having played; so I wanted to expand upon those comments.

I played in Atlantic City last week. The house stood on all 17s.

It was the end of the day; and I had stopped playing with my own money, since I had not had a particularly good day. About half an hour before time for our bus, my wife handed me a $70 slot voucher and told me to take it to the blackjack tables and play it for her while she watched. I figured I'd lose it quickly, as $70 is severely under-funded for the $10 tables and up that are sported by most AC casinos.

There wasn't a regular blackjack table open at even the $10 level; and I knew I didn't have enough to play Double Attack, so I decided to give Spanish 21 a try. What followed was an incredible run of winning hands. I was winning most of the hands, hitting on my doubles and splits, etc. I was at a table with one other player for a few m8inutes, and then alone with the dealer for a few minutes.

I played through that one really good shoe, and had managed to turn the $70 into $200 by the time the dealer shuffled. I dropped $50 on the first few hands of the next shoe, so I called it a day at that point, having still slightly more than double my original session stake in about 20 minutes.

I knew a little about the Spanish 21 basic strategy; but I'm sure I was nowhere near perfect play. There are some really good points to the game, one of which is that a player 21 wins immediately. If you hit to 21, the dealer pays you before playing out her hand. I never got any of the bonus payouts durng my time there; but I did see the other player get paid 3:2 on a multi-card hand (I can't remember exactly, maybe it was a five-card 21).

Hi Bama 21,
I have played Spainish 21 a few times in Laughlin, Nevada (only an hour drive from where I live). I did OK and liked the game. I usually stick to regular BJ if I can find decent rules. I won a little bit on Spainish 21. I am like the other gentleman, I have basic strategy memorized for hit s17 and stand on s17 and don't want to memorize another. I did print out the basic strategy for Spainish 21 from the Wizard of Ods web site, and you can use it at the table. However, it is difficult to reference the chart at the table.
Roll Tide!!
Russell

Games like spanish 21

"super fun" blackjack

double exposure

blackjack that pays only 6:5

should be avoided completely!

These games are designed to kill any advanced strategy, so casinos do not have to worry about card counters any more, and can safely pile enormous amount of money into their even more enormous bank accounts!

It is ridiculous talking about playing these gimmick games.

BJStanko said:

It is ridiculous talking about playing these gimmick games.

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And yet, here we are on a board devoted to it.

I know they may not be everyone's cup of tea; but I happen to think that the discussion of game variations, as well as the discussion of betting systems and other types of play outside of the realm of card counting are both valid and useful.

This thread is about Spanish 21, which according to the Wizard of Odds, with the right rules, may be a better bet than most Blackjack games for a player using the proper basic strategy. I have only played it once; but I did very well, and would certainly play again. I won $80 on a $70 buy-in in less than twenty minutes.

You mention Double Exposure. I have played that exactly twice, winning small amounts both times.

You mention SuperFun21. I have played that several times, including some fairly long sessions; and I have a net win over the last year of over $3000.

You were previously bothered by my interest in Double Attack Blackjack in Atlantic City. Other than Spanish 21, that was the only game I won at in Atlantic City, to the tune of about $400 in an hour to an hour and a half of playing time.

I am also honest about the down-side of these games, and about the down-side of betting progressions. When I lose big, I come on here and say so. I am not misleading anyyone. In fact, I think some of my posts should serve as a fairly vivid warning on some of the risks involved.

The point is that just because a game can't be beaten by counting doesn't mean it is a rip-off or that it can't be beaten other ways. Or at least it is no more a rip-off than any other game in the casino; and it can SOMETIMES be beaten other ways.

I know the math; and I am certain that there is a lot of luck involved in my success; but given my phisical limitations and my short bankroll, I feel pretty good about the success I have had this year, net win of over $5500.

Again

And Again

"super fun" blackjack

double exposure

blackjack that pays only 6:5

should be avoided completely!

These games are designed to kill any advanced strategy, so casinos do not have to worry about card counters any more, and can safely pile enormous amount of money into their even more enormous bank accounts!

It is ridiculous talking about playing these gimmick games.

Progressions do not work!

Talking about progressions is even more ridiculous.

I am not talking about "luck", I am not interested in luck.

I see blackjack as investment. I do not care about gambling for "fun".

Progressions cannot be treated as investment.

Everybody knows that.

I don't know what to tell you then. The site has a board for discussing variations and one for discussing betting strategies. If you don't want to read about those topics, my only suggestion would be to stay away from those discussions, although I can't for the life of me figure out why those topics offend you.

I have tried a couple of times now to be civil about this. However, if you're determined to keep jumping into threads you don't like and talking down to the participants without contributing anything whatsoever to the discussion, I may have to be a little more direct about it. Certainly, reposting the same exact thing is not a constructive response under any circumstance.

If the owner of this board bans these discussions, I'll certainly honor that. However, there is absolutely no reason that two grown-ups, playing with their own money should not be able, on a board dedicated to the topic, to discuss the game of Spanish 21 without being criticized for it.

BAMA21 said:

I don't know what to tell you then. The site has a board for discussing variations and one for discussing betting strategies. If you don't want to read about those topics, my only suggestion would be to stay away from those discussions, although I can't for the life of me figure out why those topics offend you.

I have tried a couple of times now to be civil about this. However, if you're determined to keep jumping into threads you don't like and talking down to the participants without contributing anything whatsoever to the discussion, I may have to be a little more direct about it. Certainly, reposting the same exact thing is not a constructive response under any circumstance.

If the owner of this board bans these discussions, I'll certainly honor that. However, there is absolutely no reason that two grown-ups, playing with their own money should not be able, on a board dedicated to the topic, to discuss the game of Spanish 21 without being criticized for it.

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Well said.

1+1=3

1+1=3
Mathematics

I ride a motorcycle. I ride it a lot and when I ride, I take long trips, twisting through mountain roads (500 miles away from where I live.) Yet, every once in a while, I like to jump on my son's mountain bicycle and ride around the block here in Kansas. The change of pace just makes me appreciate the thrill of riding my cruiser even more intense.

On another forum, I recall one of the finalist in the World Series of Blackjack 2005 (I think it was Rick Jensen) mentioning that though he was not a huge fan of one of the hybrid BJ games, he did divert to those tables every once in a while and had fun and won when he played it. I think it was Spanish 21 but could be mistaken.

I myself am not a huge proponent of the "circus" games nor of streak betting (streak betting facinates me sort of like watching snakes or spiders.) Heck, I've even been known to drop $10 into a penny video slot machine! Point is, deviation from straight blackjack in some form or other is not a bad thing as long as it gives you an enjoyable break from a long run at the BJ table. In my case, that diversion usually takes the form of Video Poker.

Does streak betting change the house edge in BJ? No.
Is Spanish 21 a better game mathematically for the player? Hmmm, Maybe depending on the rules.
Do either of the two practices in these two topics make the participant a bad person? No.

The only opposition I have to Spanish 21 is that I haven't devoted the time to learn the basic strategy for it...and there IS a strategy for it! It, in my opinion, is to Blackjack as Deuces Wild is to Jacks or Better in Video Poker. A variation.

BTW, if you look at a list of the games with the lowest house edge in the casinos, you'll see BJ, Video Poker, Craps and Baccarat listed as the top picks! If you really look at the percentages, Spanish 21 is actually better than a lot of BJ games depending on the rules of the games being compared.

I'm off to the casino now. Think I'll drop a couple of hundred into "Megabucks" and see if I can win enough to retire on.

Mikeaber said:

Most casinos in Vegas do not mind you useing a Strategy card at the table. Oh, they might give you some evil looks if you are slowing the play down by taking a lot of time to read the card on every hand, but generally, they do not mind.

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Mind if you use one... where do you think I PURCHASED mine? I keep one with my computer downstairs, one in my wallet, and one with my chipset. Regardless of where I am, I always have one ready to go.

Right now, since I am trying to perfect my basic strategy, I am bringing my card to the table. I try to find a table with few players, and I try to consult it as INfrequently as possible.

I joke that it is my "training wheels." No one - players or dealers - seem to have problems with it. In fact, I had a great conversation about the cards with my dealer today, who was asking what the card would say in certain situations. I am happy to report that I was able to answer him every time without looking!