Research on Spanish 21?

[Jeff Dubya]

I play tables that have a "dealer match" option. Some people seem to do very well with it. Last Friday there was a dude at the table who would bet $5 every time and he was winning like a damn machine; unstoppable.

Personally, I only do the match when I get a natural BJ, and have ones to burn. Otherwise, I keep my money for the game I am there to play.

More power to those who win, I suppose - It just doesnt interest me.

 

[Mikeaber]

I play tables that have a "dealer match" option. Some people seem to do very well with it. Last Friday there was a dude at the table who would bet $5 every time and he was winning like a damn machine; unstoppable.

Personally, I only do the match when I get a natural BJ, and have ones to burn. Otherwise, I keep my money for the game I am there to play.

More power to those who win, I suppose - It just doesnt interest me.

There are some situations where this is a good bet. I noticed that one table at Plaza has a pair of side bets (dealer 20 and player 20). You can put as little as $1 on either or both of these circles. They pay 4 or 5 to 1 I think. If the count is high, placing these bets will often pay off! If the "20" is "royalty" (Jack, Queen, King), it pays more. If it is suited Royalty it really pays off big.

 

[Jeff Dubya]

Yet one more reason to learn how to count!

Seeing a guy win 11 to 1 with $5 or $10 in the match circles is pretty fricking cool...

 

[Jeff25]

About Spanish 21, Gamemaster claims that it is a beatable game and that counting can give you a decent edge, check it out.

http://www.gamemasteronline.com/indexa.shtml (Archive copy)

 

[Sonny]

I noticed that one table at Plaza has a pair of side bets (dealer 20 and player 20). You can put as little as $1 on either or both of these circles. They pay 4 or 5 to 1 I think. If the count is high, placing these bets will often pay off! If the "20" is "royalty" (Jack, Queen, King), it pays more. If it is suited Royalty it really pays off big.

Unfortunately the Plaza dropped that side bet a few months ago. I really loved that one and made a lot of money from it:

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=1233

“I watched Sonny and his partner from a distance as they played the bet for the first time - they looked sooo innocent - seemed like every other time that they made the side bet they would win and yell, "Yeah, suited!" (10:1).” zg

-Sonny-

 

[Sonny]

About Spanish 21, Gamemaster claims that it is a beatable game and that counting can give you a decent edge, check it out.

It can be beaten, but not easily. It requires a huge spread and a lot of patience (even for a shoe player ). From Snyder's Big Book of Blackjack:

"If you've got a fairly substantial bankroll, and you're willing to get thrown out of the casino for card counting, you can beat this game...In the eight-deck game, bet one unit until you have reached the last three decks of the deal. Then, if your running count [Red 7 system] goes over zero, bet at least thirty units. That is, raise your bet from $5 to $150. In the six-deck game...bet at least twenty-five units. That is, raise your bet from $5 to $125...Of course, I think the absolute best way for players to beat this game is to avoid playing it." (p. 213-214)

-Sonny-

 

[Automatic Monkey]

It can be beaten, but not easily. It requires a huge spread and a lot of patience (even for a shoe player ). From Snyder's Big Book of Blackjack:

"If you've got a fairly substantial bankroll, and you're willing to get thrown out of the casino for card counting, you can beat this game...In the eight-deck game, bet one unit until you have reached the last three decks of the deal. Then, if your running count [Red 7 system] goes over zero, bet at least thirty units. That is, raise your bet from $5 to $150. In the six-deck game...bet at least twenty-five units. That is, raise your bet from $5 to $125...Of course, I think the absolute best way for players to beat this game is to avoid playing it." (p. 213-214)

-Sonny-

I don't think Red 7 would be a good choice. The pip 10's are gone and the EOR's of the cards are very different because the bonuses for 6-7-8 and 7-7-7 are a significant part of the player's take. The favorable rules make this game a good candidate for ace sequencing. The East Coast is full of Sp21 tables with empty seats and low limits.

 

[ortango]

And Again

"super fun" blackjack

double exposure

blackjack that pays only 6:5

should be avoided completely!

These games are designed to kill any advanced strategy, so casinos do not have to worry about card counters any more, and can safely pile enormous amount of money into their even more enormous bank accounts!

It is ridiculous talking about playing these gimmick games.

Those are not unbeatable games, but I agree they should be more or less avoided. In Big Book of BJ by Snyder he provides full strategy charts for all those games, including Spanish 21 (except the carny 6:5 of course), with bet spreads using the R7 to get the advantage. He even talks about who invented these games. I am inclined to trust the man, as he always backs up any of his claims.

However, basic strategies for these games are very tought to memorize, especially if you are going to use indexes (some of which dont even exist for these games). He highly recommends sticking to regular BJ but they are not unbeatable

 

[QFIT]

Sp21 is beatable with a high advantage. However, the strategy is difficult and has yet to be published. A book has been written; but I don't know the publication date.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Sp21 is beatable with a high advantage. However, the strategy is difficult and has yet to be published. A book has been written; but I don't know the publication date.

Is it a counting strategy, and/or does it take advantage of one or several of the special rules?

 

[Vytas]

Blackjack as an 11

If you're playing a super fun 21, or a 6:5 crapjack game, is there a point where it is to your advantage to use your blackjack as an 11 and double down? If the count is right ,then you get more cash on the table.I try to avoid these games, but sometimes it's all thats available,either crowds or greedy casinos. Or is it more suble just to whip an ash tray at the PC and get yourself the boot.
Vytas

 

[josh3623]

throw your pc out the window

double down on a blackjack? wait, I have a better idea... why don't you just take your hard earned money, and just give it to the pit boss, it would save you a lot of time and confusion. It would be less frustrating for you. In the end you would have more time to work, so it would save you money as well.:laugh:

 

[josh3623]

I'm sure most people have seen Spanish 21... its a blackjack game that offers lots of bonuses for certain hands (like 3:1 for a 6-7-8) and the other lure for the game is that it allows you to double down at any time. But the one big drawback is that it removes the 10's (not Jacks, Queens, or Kings... just 10's) from the deck. I've actually heard that this game offers a relatively low house edge when playing its correct basic strategy.

Has anyone done any research on this game and know the correct basic strategy or the house edge for a 6 deck game? Just curious if this game is worth my time.

I do not personally play spanish 21, I do not like the decreased dealer bust rate, resulting from the unbalanced deck. However, one author, whose opinion I respect, loves the game, and has a modified basic stratagy for the game which he swears by, it is presented in his book "Betting on Blackjack"
his name is Fritz Dunki Jacobs. basically you hit more and double down less.
He has done the research and presents it in the book. It should answer your questions. don't get to caught up in trying to weigh odds on the special payouts, your odds of getting a 6,7,8 suited blackjack for example are like 1000 to one.

 

[RebGrl23]

Double Deck Spanish 21

Hey there-
My name is Sarah. I work at a little Indian Casino in Northern California, Bear River in Loleta. Anyway, last week we put in a Double Deck Spanish 21 table and the players can't seem to figure it out. We would like to be able to tell them "What the book says", but so far I haven't been able to find a single thing on double deck. Players are getting their butts kicked trying to hit like they are playin' with 6 decks, which means we aren't making any tips on it. lol Do you guys have any advice?

 

[ScottH]

Hey there-
My name is Sarah. I work at a little Indian Casino in Northern California, Bear River in Loleta. Anyway, last week we put in a Double Deck Spanish 21 table and the players can't seem to figure it out. We would like to be able to tell them "What the book says", but so far I haven't been able to find a single thing on double deck. Players are getting their butts kicked trying to hit like they are playin' with 6 decks, which means we aren't making any tips on it. lol Do you guys have any advice?

I did a quick search and found this article that you might find helpful.

http://grochowski.casinocitytimes.com/article/basic-strategy-for-spanish-21-806

 

[Sonny]

I've never heard of a 2-deck version (maybe you're the first!) but here's the strategy cards for the shoe version:

http://wizardofodds.com/spanish21

The strategy is a bit trickier than regular BJ so many players will probably get frustrated and give up. Anyone who learns the correct strategy will probably play at a very low house edge so you should get plenty of tips from winning players.

-Sonny-

 

[MGP]

Hey there-
My name is Sarah. I work at a little Indian Casino in Northern California, Bear River in Loleta. Anyway, last week we put in a Double Deck Spanish 21 table and the players can't seem to figure it out. We would like to be able to tell them "What the book says", but so far I haven't been able to find a single thing on double deck. Players are getting their butts kicked trying to hit like they are playin' with 6 decks, which means we aren't making any tips on it. lol Do you guys have any advice?

For 2 Spanish Decks, S17, No redoubling I get the following EV's:

TD: -0.23690198196334%
2C: -0.233732035234501%
CD: -0.222784014743922%

If redoubling is allowed the strategy is pretty different - I can run that if you need it but I doubt you do since that would be a positive EV game.

Since it's not much of a difference I'm not going to bother trying to figure out which deviations make sense except suited hand exceptions to the 2C strategy, but here are the TD and 2C strategies:

Suited Spades 78 - Hit vs 4
Any Suited 68 - Hit vs 5

Total Dependent										
Hard 	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	1
4	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
5	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
6	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
7	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
8	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
9	H	H	H	H	D	H	H	H	H	H
10	D	D	D	D	D	D	D	H	H	H
11	D	D	D	D	D	D	D	D	D	D
12	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
13	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
14	H	H	S	S	S	H	H	H	H	H
15	S	S	S	S	S	H	H	H	H	H
16	S	S	S	S	S	H	H	H	H	H
17	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	R
18	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S
19	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S
20	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S
21	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S
										
Total Dependent										
Soft 	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	1
12	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
13	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
14	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
15	H	H	H	H	D	H	H	H	H	H
16	H	H	H	H	D	H	H	H	H	H
17	H	H	D	D	D	H	H	H	H	H
18	S	S	D, S	D, S	D, S	S	S	H	H	H
19	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S
20	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S
21	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S
										
Total Dependent										
Pairs	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	1
A, A	P	P	P	P	P	P	P	P	P	P
2, 2	P	P	P	P	P	P	--	--	--	--
3, 3	P	P	P	P	P	P	P	--	--	--
4, 4	--	--	--	--	--	--	--	--	--	--
5, 5	--	--	--	--	--	--	--	--	--	--
6, 6	--	--	P	P	P	--	--	--	--	--
7, 7	P	P	P	P	P	P	--	--	--	--
8, 8	P	P	P	P	P	P	P	P	P	P
9, 9	--	P	P	P	P	--	P	P	--	--
10, 10	--	--	--	--	--	--	--	--	--	--
										
2 Card Dependent										
Hard 	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	1
2, 3	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
2, 4	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
2, 5	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
3, 4	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
2, 6	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
3, 5	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
2, 7	H	H	H	H	D	H	H	H	H	H
3, 6	H	H	H	H	D	H	H	H	H	H
4, 5	H	H	H	D	D	H	H	H	H	H
2, 8	D	D	D	D	D	D	D	H	H	H
3, 7	D	D	D	D	D	D	D	H	H	H
4, 6	D	D	D	D	D	D	D	H	H	H
2, 9	D	D	D	D	D	D	D	D	H	D
3, 8	D	D	D	D	D	D	D	D	D	D
4, 7	D	D	D	D	D	D	D	D	D	D
5, 6	D	D	D	D	D	D	D	D	D	D
2, 10	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
3, 9	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
4, 8	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
5, 7	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
3, 10	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
4, 9	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
5, 8	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
6, 7	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
4, 10	H	H	S	S	S	H	H	H	H	H
5, 9	H	H	S	S	S	H	H	H	H	H
6, 8	H	H	H	S	H	H	H	H	H	H
5, 10	S	S	S	S	S	H	H	H	H	H
6, 9	S	S	S	S	S	H	H	H	H	H
7, 8	H	H	S	S	S	H	H	H	H	H
6, 10	S	S	S	S	S	H	H	H	H	H
7, 9	S	S	S	S	S	H	H	H	H	H
7, 10	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	R
8, 9	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	R
8, 10	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S
9, 10	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S
										
2 Card Dependent										
Soft 	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	1
A, 2	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
A, 3	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
A, 4	H	H	H	H	D	H	H	H	H	H
A, 5	H	H	H	D	D	H	H	H	H	H
A, 6	H	H	D	D	D	H	H	H	H	H
A, 7	S	S	D	D	D	S	S	H	H	H
A, 8	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S
A, 9	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S
A, 10	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S
										
2 Card Dependent										
Pairs	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	1
A, A	P, H	P, H	P, H	P, H	P, H	P, H	P, H	P, H	P, H	P, H
2, 2	P, H	P, H	P, H	P, H	P, H	P, H	H	H	H	H
3, 3	P, H	P, H	P, H	P, H	P, H	P, H	P, H	H	H	H
4, 4	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
5, 5	D	D	D	D	D	D	D	H	H	H
6, 6	H	H	P, H	P, H	P, H	H	H	H	H	H
7, 7	P, H	P, H	P, S	P, S	P, S	P, H	H	H	H	H
8, 8	P, S	P, S	P, S	P, S	P, S	P, H	P, H	P, H	P, H	P, H
9, 9	S	P, S	P, S	P, S	P, S	S	P, S	P, S	S	S
10, 10	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S
										
2 Card Dependent										
Hard 	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	1
4	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
5	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
6	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
7	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
8	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
9	H	H	H	D	D	H	H	H	H	H
10	D	D	D	D	D	D	D	H	H	H
11	D	D	D	D	D	D	D	D	H	D
12	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
13	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
14	H	H	S	S	S	H	H	H	H	H
15	S	S	S	S	S	H	H	H	H	H
16	S	S	S	S	S	H	H	H	H	H
17	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	H
18	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S
19	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S
20	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S
21	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S
										
2 Card Dependent										
Soft 	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	1
12	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
13	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
14	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
15	H	H	H	H	D	H	H	H	H	H
16	H	H	H	H	D	H	H	H	H	H
17	H	H	H	D	D	H	H	H	H	H
18	S	S	D, S	D, S	D, S	S	S	H	H	H
19	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S
20	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S
21	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S

 

[RebGrl23]

We actually do allow redoubling on our double deck spanish. The can double up to 3 times. Thanks for the chart though I appreciate it!

 

[MGP]

If you could post all the rules please I'll post the strategy. E.g. is LS allowed, resplitting aces, hitting splt aces, DDR, etc.

If I just used the same rules (S17 DDR 2SD LS DOA DAN SPL3 Hit/Resplit/Double Split Aces 5/6/7 Card 21, 678/777 Bonuses, Player wins 21/BJ ties ) but add RDA up to 3 doubles I get an EV of +0.175% for the player so I suspect there are some rules that I'm applying that I shouldn't be. The redoubling changes the strategy a bit so I can repost a strategy when I have all the rules.

One qualification I need to make about my redoubling strategies is that my CA always uses a CD post-double strategy for redoubling/DDR and it uses the same post-double strategy post-split. I haven't set it up to use TD play for the post-double hands. I might fix that one day but probably not soon.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Slightly related question- do you know of any source for playing indices for Spanish 21? I'm willing to use either {-1,0,1,1,1,1,0,0,0,-1} or {-2,1,2,2,2,1,0,0,0,-2}, no real preference.