1st Base Counting

[blackjack avenger]

Who's With Me!, I Hope You Are!

I said in my title of my first post on this subject:
"Just the Basics"

So with just the basics (cardcounting, not hole card play) , playing the last hand vs. the first hand. The SCORE can increase by about 5% (hey, it's deja vu, all over again :joker::whip in shoes and about 15% - 20% in SD because you can see more cards before you play your hand. In single deck this is considered an important consideration, playing last.

If you do not use indices this has no value. The fewer decks, more indices and a better cut and the stronger this advantage.

Yes, one should try to avoid full tables because you are overall slowed down. However, if it is you and at least one other player the basic premise holds that sitting on the left for card counting is preferable.

Hole card play is great, when you can find it. However, this advantage one can use every time they play and has an advantage even in shoe play where hole carding is more rare.

The true count theorem has to do with betting. Everyone bets at the same time so wether you sit first or last does not matter with betting.

Where you sit has more value when you play your hand. Everyone plays there hand in specific order and sitting to the left means you see more cards.

All the above has to do with cardcounting. Hole card is a whole different issue.

Don't take my word for it:joker::whip:

Go to Qfits site.

I would take his word over mine in a lot of bj math issues.:joker::whip:

I should have spent more time at the beach:joker::whip::whip:
Double whip for that one!

 

[jay28]

The main question I have is close to what mimosine is talking above.

Say there's 4 people at the table. 60 cards have been dealt and the RC is +4. Is it better to be at first base when the RC is +4, or is it better to be at third base and after seeing a couple extra cards come out the RC is +3?

I can't see a big difference really, but I'm not sure if I'm thinking about it correctly. You always want to have the most accurate count you can so you want to see as many cards as you can, so 3rd base makes sense. But then say it's a hand where the dealer has a face card showing so a lot of cards are being taken by other players, and you watch the count drop as it gets around to you. I can't see it mattering much.

I guess you mean the TC rather than the RC?

Your right with your conclusion that it doesn't really matter much, this is because your bet is already out and you can't increase or decrease units after seeing any additional cards. If the TC alters, it's not going to be by much and is just as likely to be favourable as unfavourable. You might make a deviation from BS play but this would have been a boardline decision in the first place to make a difference with just a few extra cards.

 

[Mimosine]

You always want to have the most accurate count you can so you want to see as many cards as you can, so 3rd base makes sense.

no matter what seat you are at, the accuracy of your counting should be the same.... :grin:
right?

all that matters is the count, right at the moment when you make your playing decision, so how is it any different being at 3rd? you get to see more cards? whoopie, half the time the count will be slightly higher, half the time it will be slightly lower and the other 1/2 it won't change at all. in the end i think it is a WASH. If QFIT or anyone knows different and WHY, i'd love to have it explained to me (again).

 

[blackjack avenger]

Counting Matters

no matter what seat you are at, the accuracy of your counting should be the same.... :grin:
right?

all that matters is the count, right at the moment when you make your playing decision, so how is it any different being at 3rd? you get to see more cards? whoopie, half the time the count will be slightly higher, half the time it will be slightly lower and the other 1/2 it won't change at all. in the end i think it is a WASH. If QFIT or anyone knows different and WHY, i'd love to have it explained to me (again).

Why do we count cards?:joker::whip:
To have some knowledge of the remaining cards

The more cards you see for a playing decision the better.
if you sit on the left; last to act, you see more cards.

It is a small advantage, but it exists.
go up a couple posts and read what I wrote
or
just go check out qfits site.

 

[Canceler]

all that matters is the count, right at the moment when you make your playing decision, so how is it any different being at 3rd? you get to see more cards? whoopie, half the time the count will be slightly higher, half the time it will be slightly lower and the other 1/2 it won't change at all. in the end i think it is a WASH. If QFIT or anyone knows different and WHY, i'd love to have it explained to me (again).

I’m with you on this, Mimosine. In addition to everything you’ve said, I’d like to point out that even if third base does get to see enough more cards to change his index play decision, he’s still likely to be awfully close to the “tipping point”, where the EVs for making the play and not making the play are about equal. I’m thinking third base’s advantage is more theoretical than actual.

 

[blackjack avenger]

Mind Games

Example:
Only considering card counting

12 vs dealer 4

You are dealt this hand and it is right at your indice for deviation from BS, would you rather see some more cards or not?

The more cards you see the more info you have to play this hand. The farther to the left you are seated; last to act, the more cards you see before you act.

In the above example; or many other hands, a few cards can influence one way or the other if you should hit or stand.

 

[jack.jackson]

I think seat position only matters in SD face down games. Or face-down. Its kinda what counting by inference is. A pretty tough technique.

 

[Mimosine]

12 vs dealer 4

You are dealt this hand and it is right at your indice for deviation from BS, would you rather see some more cards or not?

The more cards you see the more info you have to play this hand. The farther to the left you are seated; last to act, the more cards you see before you act.

i see your point. i'm just not certain it materializes into an advantage. i'm also a rounded index user, for the same reason. i just am not certain that it gives us an advantage. 12v4 is a negative index play, with very little value to our game, same thing with most index plays, except for insurance....

is there a computer sim that accurately shows this?

 

[hawkeye]

If you're sitting at first base and you get a 12 vs a dealer 4, you did see all the preceding cards that came before that will help you make your decision. You saw them on the previous hand. What's the difference?

And, sorry, I forgot to mention that I only play shoe games. But I appreciate the condescending tone just the same.

 

[RG1]

In my opinion, acting last will have some benefit in pitch games, where seeing 2-4 extra cards can change the TC by +/-2 to +/-4. In the example 12 v 4 in a SD game this might be the difference between hitting at -1 TC with 35 cards left and standing at +3 TC with 31 cards left. I'm sure there is some small advantage to that, and it will correlate with how high your Playing Efficiency is with the count you are using.

Thinking of Hi-Lo Lite indexes as proof that you can round indexes without losing any value or hardly any value in shoe games, I don't think there is much benefit to sitting at 3rd base in shoe games. There is probably a disadvantage to 3rd base in shoe games with the extra ploppy heat, pit heat, and being less likely to be able to spread to two hands.

 

[blackjack avenger]

Don't Be Defensive

If you're sitting at first base and you get a 12 vs a dealer 4, you did see all the preceding cards that came before that will help you make your decision. You saw them on the previous hand. What's the difference?

And, sorry, I forgot to mention that I only play shoe games. But I appreciate the condescending tone just the same.

One point at a time. Everything else being equal. No heat, hole card or any other considerations. Just the math.

Before you bet what you state is true, you have seen all there is to see.

Now the cards come out. As the other players play their hands you can see their cards and your running count and perhaps your TC gets adjusted.

If you sit at third base or to the left you see the other players take cards, those cards give you more information. The more information an AP has the better his decisions. There is an advantage even in shoe games, though less.

Another example:
You have 16 vs dealers 10 right at the indice number.
would you rather see another card or not?

One extra card seen can influence the decision to hit or stand, that has value.

Another example:
You have 9 vs 7 and you are right at the indice for doubling or hitting. Even this example in a shoe game if you can see the other players hits then it can influence your decision on doubling. If you are deep in the shoe and you see two or more high cards; even one, then you should not double.

One of the older SD strategies with good rules was to sit to the left and make play adjustments based on the cards seen as players took hits!

Why is it suggested in SD or DD to sit where you can see players hands as they play? It's so you have more information to play your hand.

The value of seeing other players take their hits still has value in multi deck, it is just less so.

Sitting to the left is better then sitting to the right of other players.

To those who play and still doubt me, go play and I bet at some point when at an indice number you will think. I wish I could see a few more cards.

Seeing cards has value, it is the basis of what we do.

 

[zengrifter]

One point at a time. Everything else being equal. No heat, hole card or any other considerations. Just the math.

Before you bet what you state is true, you have seen all there is to see.

Now the cards come out. As the other players play their hands you can see their cards and your running count and perhaps your TC gets adjusted.

If you sit at third base or to the left you see the other players take cards, those cards give you more information. The more information an AP has the better his decisions. There is an advantage even in shoe games, though less.

Another example:
You have 16 vs dealers 10 right at the indice number.
would you rather see another card or not?

One extra card seen can influence the decision to hit or stand, that has value.

Another example:
You have 9 vs 7 and you are right at the indice for doubling or hitting. Even this example in a shoe game if you can see the other players hits then it can influence your decision on doubling. If you are deep in the shoe and you see two or more high cards; even one, then you should not double.

One of the older SD strategies with good rules was to sit to the left and make play adjustments based on the cards seen as players took hits!

Why is it suggested in SD or DD to sit where you can see players hands as they play? It's so you have more information to play your hand.

The value of seeing other players take their hits still has value in multi deck, it is just less so.

Sitting to the left is better then sitting to the right of other players.

To those who play and still doubt me, go play and I bet at some point when at an indice number you will think. I wish I could see a few more cards.

Seeing cards has value, it is the basis of what we do.

The effect of seating position due to the logic you ascribe is negligible, unimportant. zg

 

[blackjack avenger]

I Guess No One Went to Qfits Site?

qfits site
http://www.blackjackincolor.com
section 4.8

Like I stated an improvement:
can be about 5% in shoe games
can be about 20% with SD

Now which is better?
To sit to the left or to the right of other players?

Some may still want to state that we should not sit at crowded tables where this improvement would be the strongest and I agree 100%. Even if it's just you and one other player so the advantage would drop tremendously. I choose to sit to the left

Because:
Slight improvement with no additional effort.

 

[shadroch]

Sit wherever you are more comfortable. Its that simple. Norms chart doesn't factor in any of the advantages of being first to act.With the right dealer,thats more important to me.