6:5 BJ is a Failure

[Renzey]

Never Overestimate the Ploppy!

Ive been hearing from those in the industry that casinos are moving away from 6:5 because it has been a failure. I'm happy to hear this, but what I don't understand is why it has failed. Are ploppies really that educated that they notice the difference?

I see long time 50 and 60 year old blackjack veterans rush to the single deck 6-to-5 table because what the heck -- it's single deck! In their own words, "Bein' paid 6-to-5 doesn't bother me -- I mean, how often does it happen?"

Locally a store opened up a single zero roulette table next to its other double zero versions. Couldn't get much action while the others were filled. Players complained that the numbers were in a different order on the wheel -- has to favor the house !?!?. House finally took it out.

How many of you have left the BJ table and hit the bathroom on a bad count, only to come back 6 minutes later and find that the other players waited for you, so as to not change the order of the cards?

Was recently playing 3-handed with the three hands being 13, 13 and 14 against a dealer's 3. First base said, "Are you both gonna stay? We nodded, "Yes". He said, "Somebody's gotta take a card" -- and hit it.

The list goes on and on.

 

[mjbballar23]

They'll be broke before they become the next generation.

true haha

 

[Friendo]

Locally a store opened up a single zero roulette table next to its other double zero versions. Couldn't get much action while the others were filled. Players complained that the numbers were in a different order on the wheel -- has to favor the house !?!?. House finally took it out.

Something within me died when I read this.

 

[Sucker]

Unfortunately in AC no hole card is dealt until after everybody plays their hands for their single deck games.

That's even BETTER! 3B gets to CHOOSE which card he wants to leave him as his "hole" card.

 

[Craps Master]

6/5 has not failed. It represents the majority of single deck games, and it has even made its way to double deck and shoe games. What evidence is there that it is on its way out?

 

[Lonesome Gambler]

Agreed. I would like to see actual hold percentages. But honestly, I see 6:5 sticking around and even continuing to spread. Even people that understand the significance of a short payout will tell you, "you don't get naturals very often anyway!"

And the 6:5 game doesn't present that poor of an expectation for the average civilian when compared to other, worse carnival games that are often closer to -5% with optimal strategy. The truth is that many average players will play carny games with a >10% disadvantage and more like a 3-4% disadvantage on 6:5. And if the casino uses a manual shuffle, they won't be hurt too much by the game speed. Obviously, it sucks to see games deteriorate like this, but wishful thinking won't help much, I'm afraid.

 

[Jack_Black]

Agreed. I would like to see actual hold percentages. But honestly, I see 6:5 sticking around and even continuing to spread. Even people that understand the significance of a short payout will tell you, "you don't get naturals very often anyway!"

And the 6:5 game doesn't present that poor of an expectation for the average civilian when compared to other, worse carnival games that are often closer to -5% with optimal strategy. The truth is that many average players will play carny games with a >10% disadvantage and more like a 3-4% disadvantage on 6:5. And if the casino uses a manual shuffle, they won't be hurt too much by the game speed. Obviously, it sucks to see games deteriorate like this, but wishful thinking won't help much, I'm afraid.

for some reason, I'm friends or a few PBs are very friendly with me. I've never asked for actual holds, but they do say that 6:5 SD has the best hold, although it also has the least amount of action on it.

BJ game speed is lightning fast compared to other carny games with higher disadvantages. so yes the 65 game has 2-3% HE, but it plays so much faster than 5% poker variants or other games. it's like getting stabbed with a needle millions of times in an hour vs getting stabbed with an ice pick thousands of times over a few days. ouch.

 

[WABJ11]

Unfortunately in AC no hole card is dealt until after everybody plays their hands for their single deck games.

Actually I think the Trump Casinos do deal a hole card. Not sure about other properties in AC.

Only the Evil Empire (Caesars/Harrahs) deals it without a hole card.

 

[Wookets]

Unfortunately in AC no hole card is dealt until after everybody plays their hands for their single deck games.

Is this true in all of AC?

 

[Automatic Monkey]

6/5 has not failed. It represents the majority of single deck games, and it has even made its way to double deck and shoe games. What evidence is there that it is on its way out?

It has peaked. They sweat the 6:5 SD because it is very beatable by a skilled counter, so much so that they would be better off putting in a 3:2 shoe; at least their surveillance people will know how to count that if they know how to count at all. The 6:5 shoes are relegated to oddball properties and ill-conceived "party pits" that try to pay both a dealer and a stripper with $10 bets at 30 hands per hour.

 

[melbedewy]

Ive been hearing from those in the industry that casinos are moving away from 6:5 because it has been a failure. I'm happy to hear this, but what I don't understand is why it has failed. Are ploppies really that educated that they notice the difference?

The only reasons I can think of are market competition, and the fact that most casinos offer 3:2 just steps away from their "single/double deck" 6:5 tables. If you put $35 or $45 BJ payout right in front of someone obviously they're going to choose the $45.

So what are the reasons it has failed? Have we not given ploppies enough credit?

You go downtown tonight or tomorrow night from joint to joint and then tell us if 6-5 is dying.
:laugh:

 

[21gunsalute]

You go downtown tonight or tomorrow night from joint to joint and then tell us if 6-5 is dying.
:laugh:

Downtown is dying, if not dead.

 

[The Chaperone]

They'll be broke before they become the next generation.

This is the main problem that casinos either don't understand or don't care about. Ploppies don't understand math, but they do understand when they go to Vegas twice a year and lose every ****ing time. In the old days they might have won 3 or 4 times out of 10 trips. With 6:5 and poor knowledge of BS, they can easily lose 10 trips in a row. At that point they may decide to not go back.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

This is the main problem that casinos either don't understand or don't care about. Ploppies don't understand math, but they do understand when they go to Vegas twice a year and lose every ****ing time. In the old days they might have won 3 or 4 times out of 10 trips. With 6:5 and poor knowledge of BS, they can easily lose 10 trips in a row. At that point they may decide to not go back.

It does reflect a zeitgeist permeating business in general. A lot of people don't think there is going to be a tomorrow, that we are spiraling into a depression that is going to make leisure spending and the economic traditions of the US but a memory. People seem willing to chisel on anything, get what they can while they can. If your young ploppy with disposable income is going to be on a breadline two years from now anyway, who cares if you turn him off to casinos? You already got all you're going to get from him.

Also with the popularity of carnival games the casinos realize that it's not if a ploppy loses all his money, but where. Better to take it all at your 6:5 BJ game than your neighbor's 3CP game. The ploppy is going to have the same memories of Vegas anyway, he's not going to remember what he lost where.

 

[tthree]

This is the main problem that casinos either don't understand or don't care about. Ploppies don't understand math, but they do understand when they go to Vegas twice a year and lose every ****ing time. In the old days they might have won 3 or 4 times out of 10 trips. With 6:5 and poor knowledge of BS, they can easily lose 10 trips in a row. At that point they may decide to not go back.

I purposed the casino shooting themselves in the foot by trying for to much advantage with this same argument a couple months ago. If the gambler loses every trip he won't be back after a while. If he wins some of the time he feels comfortable coming back over and over again thinking this will be one of my lucky trips. When he loses every time that feeling goes away along with his future visits. A big picture casino strategy is to have games that can be beaten in the short run but not in the long run. This type of game necessarily has a smaller house edge. They make money slower in the short run but assure decades of loses from repeat customers exponentially growing long term profits. They got away from this model and they have paid the price in the form of a smaller customer base.

 

[21forme]

If your young ploppy with disposable income is going to be on a breadline two years from now anyway, who cares if you turn him off to casinos?

The casinos should care because their massive debt service will last a lot longer than 2 years.

 

[tthree]

The casinos should care because their massive debt service will last a lot longer than 2 years.

Rule number one for making a profit in business. Building a customer base.

 

[Sucker]

Downtown is dying, if not dead.

And largely BECAUSE of the self-inflicted cancer known as "6:5 blackjack"! (Also because of all of the OTHER short-sighted, overly greedy measures they've been imposing over the years).

 

[snorky]

I was talking to a dealer and he suggests doubling down on a natural when the dealer has 4,5, or 6. That has to be bad right?

 

[tthree]

I was talking to a dealer and he suggests doubling down on a natural when the dealer has 4,5, or 6. That has to be bad right?

Don't listen to him. Risking 1.2 sure thing to win an extra .8 is a bad idea. You risk 2 +1.2 = 3.2 to win .8, forgetaboutit.