A little help please.

ScottH

Well-Known Member
Rspeirsmlb said:
Haha, I think it's funny you said that because becoming a pro baseball player has always been my dreams.....how far did I come? Well, I very well could play semi-pro now, but have lost the drive because it wasn't making me any money (and I become into more things, blackjack for instance). But, you do make an excellent point about 2 heads being greater than one. I would love to start a BJ team, but all my friends aren't nearly driven into blackjack as I am....and are completely oblivious to Adcantage Play, even when I try to explaint it to them(basic strategy throwing in gut feelings kinda players) so it's a little difficult to find one. I'm not wanting to become a FULL TIME pro, but a STRONG ADVANTAGE PLAYER that plays weekly and grows his bankroll to a much larger number keeping his dayjob. Seems how I have an advantage over most 19 year olds, (recieving 20k on my birthdays [insurance checks]) and instead of spending my money, I like to watch it grow and work for it....rather than let it sit in a a CD, etc. and gain only 5% a year, I'de like to double, quadrouple, etc. within a year ya know. I wouldn't object to anyone willing to be on a BJ team with me. Let me ask you this....how well your and supercoolman's team performed?
Me and supercoolmancool are a 2 person team. We had a very short run at card counting, but we realized that to become pro advantage players, we would have to go a different route. That is what we are currently working on, becoming proficient at other AP methods. We have current projects to learn several different methods, so we will always have an option, and we won't burn ourselves out on any one game of method.

Stick around the forums and talk to other AP's and you may find someone to make a team with. It's better if you can find a good friend that you can trust, but sometimes your friends just aren't interested, and that's OK.

Best of luck!
 

Rspeirsmlb

Well-Known Member
Was card counting not profitable for the team? or how did it not work out? Just looking for a little advice before I look into it any further. Thanks.
 

supercoolmancool

Well-Known Member
Right. We found that card counting was NOT profitable and no longer incorporate it into our "business". We only play games with much larger edges or games that we can play unlimited hours with no cover. If the casinos let us count cards and we could sit down and play all day long then it would be profitable for us. BUT THEY KICK YOU OUT!
 
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Bojack1

Well-Known Member
Rspeirsmlb, I will tell you first hand that what you want is possible but at times it will seem impossible. You talked about the dream of being a pro baseball player but than quitting your dream because there was no money in it at the level at which you advanced to. Blackjack is very similar, and if you approach it with the same attitude as your baseball career, you will be pretty broke playing blackjack also. The road is littered with many would be professionals who read a book or two, practiced some, enjoyed a bit of success, and thought that was all there was to it. Only to be broke and on to the next get rich quick scheme within a year or so. Don't get me wrong, playing this game recreationally doesn't require a massive amount of effort or even skill. But anything above wanting to play a fun close to break even game does however take a good bit of effort, and wanting to make real money or play professionally takes more effort, discipline and skill than most are willing to put into it. Also I'm not sure what your definition of a strong advantage player is, but if its anything close to what mine is, if you want to be a weekly player you're going to have to travel quite a bit. Regardless of your talent any real casino will burn you out if you hit the same one every week once you get your play and bankroll up to a certain level. There is a lot more to this game than most realize, very few see that, or even care to. But I wish you the best of luck.
 

shadroch

Well-Known Member
supercoolmancool said:
Right. We found that card counting was NOT profitable and no longer incorporate it into our "business". We only play games with much larger edges or games that we can play unlimited hours with no cover. If the casinos let us count cards and we could sit down and play all day long then it would be profitable for us. BUT THEY KICK YOU OUT!
They only kick out the players they catch.A good part of being a successful counter is learning how to blend in and when to cut out.
 

ScottH

Well-Known Member
shadroch said:
They only kick out the players they catch.A good part of being a successful counter is learning how to blend in and when to cut out.
That's why like Bojack said, if you want to be a full-time pro you have to travel because no matter how good you are at cover, if you put in enough hours in a short time period you will wear out your welcome. That's part of the problem like supercool suggested, you can't just sit down and play as much as you want. That's why straight card counting is not the best route to go pro on. There are other methods with bigger edges and better cover.
 

shadroch

Well-Known Member
ScottH said:
That's why like Bojack said, if you want to be a full-time pro you have to travel because no matter how good you are at cover, if you put in enough hours in a short time period you will wear out your welcome. That's part of the problem like supercool suggested, you can't just sit down and play as much as you want. That's why straight card counting is not the best route to go pro on. There are other methods with bigger edges and better cover.
Or you can just travel.I consider them working vacations.
In Vegas and the vicinity,there are about 50 decent games.Each casino has three shifts so you can play 150 sessions before you need to encounter the same pitboss.You can also hit three or four casinos easily in the same shift.
My friend has been playing Vegas for over a decade and claims to have never played in any casino twice in a month.
If you hit any casino hard enough often enough,they'll toss you. They don't just toss card counters,they toss anyone who beats their game.
Ask Bojack about his friend Booker up in Conn.
 

eps6724

Well-Known Member
Becase of my job, I'll be all over the midwest and south, never longer than a week at anyone place in a year. I plan on still learning to count-amI wasting my time???????
 

EasyRhino

Well-Known Member
I had great fun learning to count at riverboat casinos around st louis during a business trip (the games aren't particularly quality, but it's fun)
 
ScottH said:
That's why like Bojack said, if you want to be a full-time pro you have to travel because no matter how good you are at cover, if you put in enough hours in a short time period you will wear out your welcome. That's part of the problem like supercool suggested, you can't just sit down and play as much as you want. That's why straight card counting is not the best route to go pro on. There are other methods with bigger edges and better cover.
There are a lot of considerations. It's true, that if you are spreading with the count you can and will eventually be caught. If you are not spreading with the count you aren't making any money counting. Travel is effective, and the longer it will be before I am planning to go back to a store, the harder I hit them.

There's one word missing from your post and that is variance. Techniques like spooking and holecarding Three Card Poker can have a big advantage but even bigger variance, causing you to need to reduce your bet for the same RoR, making your win rate no better than straight counting. Tracking and sequencing can be very powerful but there are limitations on the places you can use these techniques powerfully, there's a lot of legwork and homework involved that you are not getting paid for, they also have variance, and being you will be using these techniques in fewer stores you will be giving yourself more exposure in these stores, so you will also eventually get caught.

So my advice to someone wanting to become a full-time pro (which I am not) is to learn all techniques and use them when they are the best way to approach the situation at hand, but never forget about straight counting because that is an opportunity you know you will always have available.
 

RJT

Well-Known Member
I do agree with you to an extent AM, but if you can use a lot of different advanced techniques, i personally wouldn't want to risk counting. When you play a counting game, you are playing a very easily detectable game and the truth is that i wouldn't want to put myself at risk of getting burned out in multiple joints because i got caught counting in one. Why risk these more powerful techniques, which if you know enough of them are almost as versitile as counting, for a far lower edge?

RJT.
 

jimpenn

Well-Known Member
Counting

No question in my mind a competent counter will have a slight advantage over non-counter. If a casino has say a .26 6D game...s17, LS, in addition to 75% pen the counter has a best chance of winning. But, rarely will you find a LS game outside of vegas. The killer is h17. LS a big bonus to player understanding value, but little to majority. Two years ago I began to learn the game. Today, the casinos have at least 10% of my action to date. Big reduction last year. I read where a perfect counter could increase his advantage by .5 giving him a slight edge over casino in the long run. I believe a few could do this given the rules making this possible. I don't think a professional could make a living if he had to play hit17 tables. I'll even give you LS in exchange.
 

ScottH

Well-Known Member
jimpenn said:
No question in my mind a competent counter will have a slight advantage over non-counter. If a casino has say a .26 6D game...s17, LS, in addition to 75% pen the counter has a best chance of winning. But, rarely will you find a LS game outside of vegas. The killer is h17. LS a big bonus to player understanding value, but little to majority. Two years ago I began to learn the game. Today, the casinos have at least 10% of my action to date. Big reduction last year. I read where a perfect counter could increase his advantage by .5 giving him a slight edge over casino in the long run. I believe a few could do this given the rules making this possible. I don't think a professional could make a living if he had to play hit17 tables. I'll even give you LS in exchange.
Penetration is much more important than the rules. The best game I have ever found was h17...
 

jimpenn

Well-Known Member
Remember the old saying about every blind dog finding a bone. Well you found one. The searches are becoming harder.
 

Sonny

Well-Known Member
ScottH said:
The best game I have ever found was h17...
Same here. The dealers weren't plugging the discards either. I guess the casino was cheating in my favor. :) Or maybe I was just tracking the discards...

-Sonny-
 

Sonny

Well-Known Member
jimpenn said:
Remember the old saying about every blind dog finding a bone. Well you found one. The searches are becoming harder.
The searches are definitely becoming much harder. It takes stronger eyes to spot the good games these days. Often times the bad rules and penetration can disguise a very profitable game. The scouting techniques that worked decades ago do not always work now.

-Sonny-
 
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Sonny

Well-Known Member
jimpenn said:
I read where a perfect counter could increase his advantage by .5 giving him a slight edge over casino in the long run.
Where did you read that? If the house has an edge of 0.5% then increasing your advantage by 0.5% will not give you an advantage. Most counters can get an advantage of 1-2% in addition to beating the 0.5% house edge.

jimpenn said:
I don't think a professional could make a living if he had to play hit17 tables. I'll even give you LS in exchange.
I'll take it! LS can be more valuable than S17 in some cases. Either way the game is beatable and I don't think any pro players would avoid a game just because it was H17.

-Sonny-
 

ihate17

Well-Known Member
counter vs amatuer

Sonny said:
Where did you read that? If the house has an edge of 0.5% then increasing your advantage by 0.5% will not give you an advantage. Most counters can get an advantage of 1-2% in addition to beating the 0.5% house edge.



I'll take it! LS can be more valuable than S17 in some cases. Either way the game is beatable and I don't think any pro players would avoid a game just because it was H17.

-Sonny-
When it comes to an advantage player, certainly rules are only one part of a multi part equation concerning any given game. For a straight counter the amount of penetration is of huge importance. The hole carder is looking for sloppy dealers and the tracker wants an easily trackable shuffle. Stuff like S-17 and surrender become nice but of secondary importance, though surrender is of great defensive importance to a hole carder.

Often on this site, including this thread, you have a begginning counter or a non counting BS player or a pure novice, asking a question about games and rules. For these people the rules become supremely important. For the basic strategy player penetration is of no importance and even experienced ones probably could not tell you if the dealer cut a deck or two decks off, but they will be able to tell you if the dealer hits soft 17. So for these people, who come here for help to improve their blackjack results, the promotion of S-17 games by us is important. The pros already know what they need for the best possible outcome.

ihate17
 
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