AC Conditions

[Automatic Monkey]

A side question for all of you - how long do you think the favorable conditions in PA/DE will last before the casino mgmt cry that they require H17 games to survive? Next year?

As for crappy players, I notice them all over, aside from AC

-B

It would be a dumb choice from any perspective. AC is a much larger market than PA. If you are a small market and you are drawing customers away from a large market by being different, you don't go and try to make yourself more like the large market. That would be suicidal. Like Five Guys trying to make their hamburger more like McDonald's.

 

[aslan]

A side question for all of you - how long do you think the favorable conditions in PA/DE will last before the casino mgmt cry that they require H17 games to survive? Next year?

As for crappy players, I notice them all over, aside from AC

-B

There are three things that AC continues to have over most other casinos, except Las Vegas and Reno: (1) they have hotels attached to their casinos, with comped rooms and all the amenities; only a few of the others to my knowledge have this, Sands in PA and Dover Downs come to mind; (2) they have a cluster of major casinos within minutes of each other; and (3) they are of sufficient size to attract very large players from around the country, and from outside the country.

For me, most trips to non-AC casinos must be day trips, unless I'm willing to put up with staying at a nearby motel. When I'm in AC, I forget about the weather, since I am safely ensconced in a luxury hotel, and I can stay there for days at a time. I enjoy the AC comps, which go beyond a sandwich and a coke; excellent meals are comped, and I've never had to pay for a room. I've also purchased a ton of clothing and other stuff on comps earned. I sat with one lady at the tables one day and evening last week, a fifty dollar player, whose husband spent most of the trip at the hotel spa.

The things I do not like about AC are the distance from home and the mediocre games.

On balance, I believe the PA and DE casinos need to compete more than AC for many players. If you live in those areas, you're basically a captive audience, but if you're away from those areas, the better games can be the deciding factor. For me, I can drive an hour less, or the same amount of time for some, but the main thing is the better games. How much the rumor that PA and DE games are better affects ploppies, I don't know. But shorter distances and better games are the best thing non-AC casinos have to offer, except for the few with hotels.

 

[BookerPA]

There are three things that AC continues to have over most other casinos, except Las Vegas and Reno: (1) they have hotels attached to their casinos, with comped rooms and all the amenities; only a few of the others to my knowledge have this, Sands in PA and Dover Downs come to mind; (2) they have a cluster of major casinos within minutes of each other; and (3) they are of sufficient size to attract very large players from around the country, and from outside the country.

For me, most trips to non-AC casinos must be day trips, unless I'm willing to put up with staying at a nearby motel. When I'm in AC, I forget about the weather, since I am safely ensconced in a luxury hotel, and I can stay there for days at a time. I enjoy the AC comps, which go beyond a sandwich and a coke; excellent meals are comped, and I've never had to pay for a room. I've also purchased a ton of clothing and other stuff on comps earned. I sat with one lady at the tables one day and evening last week, a fifty dollar player, whose husband spent most of the trip at the hotel spa.

The things I do not like about AC are the distance from home and the mediocre games.

On balance, I believe the PA and DE casinos need to compete more than AC for many players. If you live in those areas, you're basically a captive audience, but if you're away from those areas, the better games can be the deciding factor. For me, I can drive an hour less, or the same amount of time for some, but the main thing is the better games. How much the rumor that PA and DE games are better affects ploppies, I don't know. But shorter distances and better games are the best thing non-AC casinos have to offer, except for the few with hotels.

Aslan,very much agree with all stated, especially the quality of the comps. I am ten mins from one PA casino, and have now reduced that to seven by driving faster. :grin:

 

[zoomie]

There are three things that AC continues to have over most other casinos, except Las Vegas and Reno: (1) they have hotels attached to their casinos, with comped rooms and all the amenities; only a few of the others to my knowledge have this, Sands in PA and Dover Downs come to mind; (2) they have a cluster of major casinos within minutes of each other; and (3) they are of sufficient size to attract very large players from around the country, and from outside the country.

For me, most trips to non-AC casinos must be day trips, unless I'm willing to put up with staying at a nearby motel. When I'm in AC, I forget about the weather, since I am safely ensconced in a luxury hotel, and I can stay there for days at a time. I enjoy the AC comps, which go beyond a sandwich and a coke; excellent meals are comped, and I've never had to pay for a room. I've also purchased a ton of clothing and other stuff on comps earned. I sat with one lady at the tables one day and evening last week, a fifty dollar player, whose husband spent most of the trip at the hotel spa.

The things I do not like about AC are the distance from home and the mediocre games.

On balance, I believe the PA and DE casinos need to compete more than AC for many players. If you live in those areas, you're basically a captive audience, but if you're away from those areas, the better games can be the deciding factor. For me, I can drive an hour less, or the same amount of time for some, but the main thing is the better games. How much the rumor that PA and DE games are better affects ploppies, I don't know. But shorter distances and better games are the best thing non-AC casinos have to offer, except for the few with hotels.

With respect to AM's point about being competitive by being different, and noting Aslan's above, I would conclude that PA and DE are not exactly stealing clientele from AC, they are just keeping their locals at home. If that is true, won't it still be true if those places toughen up their games? I just don't think the ploppies think much about game quality, and those persuaded to stick near home must not care about Aslan's amenities or they would still be in AC. Ergo, I would think that the rules in AC's neighbors are going to deteriorate. I believe the same logic suggests that the AC games can be tougher at little cost because of Aslan's amenities, and that is what we have been seeing, yes?

Put another way, wouldn't it be only a temporary fix for any one casino to loosen up, since that casino would draw some knowledgeable players away from competitors, but only until competitors loosened up also? So what would be the point of loosening?

 

[aslan]

With respect to AM's point about being competitive by being different, and noting Aslan's above, I would conclude that PA and DE are not exactly stealing clientele from AC, they are just keeping their locals at home. If that is true, won't it still be true if those places toughen up their games? I just don't think the ploppies think much about game quality, and those persuaded to stick near home must not care about Aslan's amenities or they would still be in AC. Ergo, I would think that the rules in AC's neighbors are going to deteriorate. I believe the same logic suggests that the AC games can be tougher at little cost because of Aslan's amenities, and that is what we have been seeing, yes?

Put another way, wouldn't it be only a temporary fix for any one casino to loosen up, since that casino would draw some knowledgeable players away from competitors, but only until competitors loosened up also? So what would be the point of loosening?

I agree that AC is not going to change. But the surrounding states do have something to lose if out-of-staters stop coming because they see the games are deteriorating. Then, they might just as well return to AC where the comps and amenities are better.

 

[toastcmu]

With respect to AM's point about being competitive by being different, and noting Aslan's above, I would conclude that PA and DE are not exactly stealing clientele from AC, they are just keeping their locals at home. If that is true, won't it still be true if those places toughen up their games?

I believe DE will keep their rules player friendly, even though Dover's CEO is stating they are breaking even on table games. With only 3 casinos in the state, and being so close to AC and PA, they are the most vulnerable in the mid atlantic to people running and jumping to other places.

-B

 

[21forme]

If you are a small market and you are drawing customers away from a large market by being different, you don't go and try to make yourself more like the large market. That would be suicidal. Like Five Guys trying to make their hamburger more like McDonald's.

Not really. Proximity is the main draw of the PA casinos. Let's look at the Phila metro area as an example:
Most residents of the city and suburbs are within a 20 minute drive to a casino. They park for free, they don't pay $7 in tolls, and they don't drive 60-90 minutes to a crime-ridden, dirty slum along the shore.

When the PA casinos petition the state for rule changes and get approval, such as no LS, H17, etc., do you think that will chase away many players? Not at all. Many ploppies are superstitious about CSMs, but short of that, I can't imagine any rule change will casue them to trek back to AC when a casino is in their backyard.

 

[Machinist]

Not really. Proximity is the main draw of the PA casinos. Let's look at the Phila metro area as an example:
Most residents of the city and suburbs are within a 20 minute drive to a casino. They park for free, they don't pay $7 in tolls, and they don't drive 60-90 minutes to a crime-ridden, dirty slum along the shore.

When the PA casinos petition the state for rule changes and get approval, such as no LS, H17, etc., do you think that will chase away many players? Not at all. Many ploppies are superstitious about CSMs, but short of that, I can't imagine any rule change will casue them to trek back to AC when a casino is in their backyard.

My vote is with you 21..... 99% of customers could care less about game quality or even slot percentage payout.... What they are interested in is a casino that "sucks" up to them and treats them like they are kings or queens....
Also if the casino has their act together with mailings inviting their special guests back.........
AC still a sheit hole eh??? Even after all these years.....what a shame!!! It could be a great vacation destination like it used be way way way back....
Also a casino has to be "comfortable" for the clientel they are trying to attract...
But distance from the casino has a Huge effect on last minute casino trips or hey honey lets go gamble a bit instead of TV tonight...

Machinist

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Not really. Proximity is the main draw of the PA casinos. Let's look at the Phila metro area as an example:
Most residents of the city and suburbs are within a 20 minute drive to a casino. They park for free, they don't pay $7 in tolls, and they don't drive 60-90 minutes to a crime-ridden, dirty slum along the shore.

When the PA casinos petition the state for rule changes and get approval, such as no LS, H17, etc., do you think that will chase away many players? Not at all. Many ploppies are superstitious about CSMs, but short of that, I can't imagine any rule change will casue them to trek back to AC when a casino is in their backyard.

So now they have Sugarhouse, where they can still enjoy the dirty crime-ridden slum experience closer to home! :laugh:

Seriously, I hear what you're saying, and it's proven that ploppies don't know the difference between H17 and S17, but why the hell would they want to get rid of surrender when >90% of the players who surrender at all do it on hands like 15 vs. 7? The rule is a gold mine for casinos, and there aren't enough AP's in the world to take that profit back. AC is afraid of surrender because of their experience of getting beat up with ES by AP's back in the 80's, and as we both know many of the dealers don't know the difference between ES and LS, but I think AC will start offering LS before PA gets rid of it. More Chinese buses from NYC go to CT than AC and I think LS is the reason why, those players love surrender and you can guess how they use it.

 

[21forme]

but why the hell would they want to get rid of surrender when >90% of the players who surrender at all do it on hands like 15 vs. 7? The rule is a gold mine for casinos, and there aren't enough AP's in the world to take that profit back.

We both know the answer to that - because casino management do not understand their own games.

AC is afraid of surrender because of their experience of getting beat up with ES by AP's back in the 80's, and as we both know many of the dealers don't know the difference between ES and LS, but I think AC will start offering LS before PA gets rid of it. More Chinese buses from NYC go to CT than AC and I think LS is the reason why, those players love surrender and you can guess how they use it.

Yes, I still attempt ES, but nowhere does it work as well as AC :grin:

I agree 100% about Asians and LS. I was at a table a few months ago where an elderly woman LS'ed EVERY 12-17 vs. dealer 9, T and A, and she even surrendered 2 card 5s and 6s v T. Interestingly, she otherwise played almost perfect BS on all her splits and doubles, though she didn't have too many hands left to play with all the surrendering :laugh:

 

[melbedewy]

It would be a dumb choice from any perspective. AC is a much larger market than PA. If you are a small market and you are drawing customers away from a large market by being different, you don't go and try to make yourself more like the large market. That would be suicidal. Like Five Guys trying to make their hamburger more like McDonald's.

They won't need to do that. Just deal out less of the shoe. If I ran a casino I would deal a 2 deck Stand 17 game (face up, no touching cards), put up a billboard "Card Counter Welcome!"--with 40% penetration.:whip:
Ploppies and BS players would love it

 

[aslan]

I believe DE will keep their rules player friendly, even though Dover's CEO is stating they are breaking even on table games. With only 3 casinos in the state, and being so close to AC and PA, they are the most vulnerable in the mid atlantic to people running and jumping to other places.

-B

"Breaking even?" It depends on how they calculate that. Do they isolate overheads that are only attributable to blackjack (pit crew and dealer salaries, CSM/ASM rental costs, cards, etc.) as a subtraction from gross revenues derived from blackjack? How do they spread other costs (heat, air conditioning, lights, guard /waitress /bartender /cashier /surveillance /etc. salaries? If business in general is way down, which it is, all the games, not just blackjack, may be just breaking even..........even though they're robbing patrons at the tables blind! In fact, blackjack may be doing better than all their other games. Statistics don't lie, but liars use statistics!

 

[aslan]

They won't need to do that. Just deal out less of the shoe. If I ran a casino I would deal a 2 deck Stand 17 game (face up, no touching cards), put up a billboard "Card Counter Welcome!"--with 40% penetration.:whip:
Ploppies and BS players would love it

I hope you allow mid-shoe entry, as well. :grin:

 

[aslan]

My vote is with you 21..... 99% of customers could care less about game quality or even slot percentage payout.... What they are interested in is a casino that "sucks" up to them and treats them like they are kings or queens....
Also if the casino has their act together with mailings inviting their special guests back.........
AC still a sheit hole eh??? Even after all these years.....what a shame!!! It could be a great vacation destination like it used be way way way back....
Also a casino has to be "comfortable" for the clientel they are trying to attract...
But distance from the casino has a Huge effect on last minute casino trips or hey honey lets go gamble a bit instead of TV tonight...

Machinist

Well, you may be right, but I'll be in the 1% that stops going.

Machines is a funny business, too. I have a friend who play mainly machines and blackjack. He travels 3 1/2 hours to AC because he likes the slots, likes the comps, likes the free rooms, and he could care less what the bj games are like. He will not go to Charles Town because he doesn't like their slots. He hates Delaware Park because of their slots. He has a platinum Harrah's card and black cards at Borgata and Taj Mahal. He visits AC 3 or 4 times a month, but passes by all the closer casinos. The larger casinos obviously have strong appeal for some ploppies. Also, the free rooms are a biggie for out-of-staters.

 

[melbedewy]

I hope you allow mid-shoe entry, as well. :grin:

Not a chance.

 

[Machinist]

Well, you may be right, but I'll be in the 1% that stops going.

Machines is a funny business, too. I have a friend who play mainly machines and blackjack. He travels 3 1/2 hours to AC because he likes the slots, likes the comps, likes the free rooms, and he could care less what the bj games are like. He will not go to Charles Town because he doesn't like their slots. He hates Delaware Park because of their slots. He has a platinum Harrah's card and black cards at Borgata and Taj Mahal. He visits AC 3 or 4 times a month, but passes by all the closer casinos. The larger casinos obviously have strong appeal for some ploppies. Also, the free rooms are a biggie for out-of-staters.

Agreed Aslan.....there definitely are those types....that have the time to make those trips...3 or 4 times a month

Machinist

 

[pit15]

They won't need to do that. Just deal out less of the shoe. If I ran a casino I would deal a 2 deck Stand 17 game (face up, no touching cards), put up a billboard "Card Counter Welcome!"--with 40% penetration.:whip:
Ploppies and BS players would love it

Bad pen for everyone is silly and decreases revenue. Assuming you can get competent pit staff (that's a huge if though) you deal 80% of the deck and pref shuffle vs counters

 

[Thunder]

Well I guess some of you jumped on Paris H---- like stink on manure because she wasn't accepting deep pen. anymore when I went to get some more.

 

[zoomie]

Sat afternoon Trump Plaza had half a dozen $10 and $15 tables that were S17 8D [ . . . ]

No more. All H17 now. :flame::flame: