Advantage issues

[Dopple]

My questions:

1. Tc+3 is the number to get in a game as you have an advantage. Is that pretty consistant across the board or would a backcounter get in at Tc+2.5 on a hit and run operation with no concern for ROR.

2. Is a count of Tc+3 equal with 5.5 decks left as with only 4 decks left.

3. A 6d shoe with 4d left is in all senses equal to a fresh 4d shoe at 0 count?

4. If we have Tc+3 as a "jump in" number what is the "get out" number where you ev turns negative? Anything below Tc+3?

5. Are all counts essential equal under different methods of counting? Would a UAPC count of Tc+3 be the same as a Hi-Lo or Zen or Red 7 Tc+3 count?

 

[Sonny]

1. Tc+3 is the number to get in a game as you have an advantage. Is that pretty consistant across the board or would a backcounter get in at Tc+2.5 on a hit and run operation with no concern for ROR.

The “jump in” point will depend on the rules of the game. Some games will give you an advantage at +2 while games with worse rules might take until +3. Also, the size of your bet spread might affect what TC you join the game. With a small spread you will usually want to wait until you have a bigger advantage before entering the game while a big spread will allow you to enter sooner. The optimal entry point is covered in Schlesinger’s book Blackjack Attack.

2. Is a count of Tc+3 equal with 5.5 decks left as with only 4 decks left.

Almost, but not exactly. The advantage of a particular TC tends to get slightly higher as you get deeper in the deck. The “floating advantage” is covered in Schlesinger’s book Blackjack Attack.

3. A 6d shoe with 4d left is in all senses equal to a fresh 4d shoe at 0 count?

No because the distribution of cards is probably not even. Just because the count is 0 doesn’t mean that there are equal numbers of each card left.

4. If we have Tc+3 as a "jump in" number what is the "get out" number where you ev turns negative?

The house usually gets the advantage back around 0 or +1. Finding the optimal departure point for several styles of play is covered in Schlesinger’s book Blackjack Attack.

5. Are all counts essential equal under different methods of counting? Would a UAPC count of Tc+3 be the same as a Hi-Lo or Zen or Red 7 Tc+3 count?

No, they will all have a different advantage at each TC. A level-2 system like Zen will find more advantages than a level-1 system like HiLo and it will more accurately tell you what your current advantage is. Basically, a more sophisticated counting system is like a ruler that has more marks per foot (or meter, for our friends in the Great White North…or pretty much anywhere else in the world other than the US). A comparison between different counting systems is covered in…you guessed it.

-Sonny-

 

[Dopple]

Thank you very much. When I have these driving questions it is just wonderful to be able to get answers like this right on the web.

This help my play.

 

[EasyRhino]

3. A 6d shoe with 4d left is in all senses equal to a fresh 4d shoe at 0 count?

A 6d shoe with 4d left AND A TC OF ZERO is equal, as advantage purposes go, compared to a 4d game off the top. Sonny's right, as the precise card composition may have changed, but if the TC is still zero, it's not going to affect your betting.

Also, you know how a 4d game has a smaller house edge than a 6d game? Well, that's the essence of "floating advantage". I agree that the BJA treatment of it is good. And while it's theoretically interesting, it doesn't become significant until you get under one deck remaining, and even then, it doesn't matter much in teh grand scheme of things.

 

[Dopple]

The game has good rules it is 6d, s17, das, split aces once, no surrender. I might be safe to step in at +2 or +2.5 under the UAPC system?

What I find disconcerting is that at 4d left in a 6d game I have been waiting until tc24 (3x8) to get in the game. Is Easy Rhino talking about an unbalanced system when he says you are even with the house with 4d left @ tc0? I remember reading Uston saying in DD you get an edge off the top at a running count of +5.

I am looking to optimize my time by getting in a game as soon as I have a reasonable edge. There is a big dif between rc 33 and rc 22 in a 6d game with 5.5 decks left.

 

[EasyRhino]

I'm talking hi-lo TC's. (I don't *play* hi-lo, but it's the easiest for discussion purposes).

You don't have an advantage on a four deck shoe off the top
Likewise, you don't have an advantage on a six deck game dealt down to four left with a true count of zero. You have the same disadvantage as a 4 deck shoe off the top.

However, the disadvantage of a four deck game is slightly less than a six deck game... which means you disadvantage actually decreased even though the true count didn't change. Strange, isn't it? That's floating advantage. Now, think how crazy this would be if you got down to half a deck left. But remember, floating advantage is mainly a curiosity.

The very rough and clumsy rule of thumb is that each +1 TC is worth .5% advantage. so TC +1 just wipes out the house edge and turns it into a coin flip. TC +2 gives you a 0.5% advantage, which isn't really that much, TC +3 gives you a 1% advantage, and now you can really start working it.

Obviously, better rules will shift things in your favor slightly at any given TC, and better pen will give you more high counts.

 

[zengrifter]

My questions:

4. If we have Tc+3 as a "jump in" number what is the "get out" number where you ev turns negative? Anything below Tc+3?

Depends on how deep the shoe is. Its a time-motion thang. zg

 

[zengrifter]

Basically, a more sophisticated counting system is like a ruler that has more marks per foot -

Thats a good analogy, do you do seminars? zg

 

[bj bob]

Thats a good analogy, do you do seminars? zg

Yeah, but you gotta talk to his agent.:cool2: