advice for a two-person team counting

[nicetrades200303]

Hello, everyone. I have been counting blackjack for about six sessions now at two different casinos. I play six deck, spreading 1-10, $100 max bet at the red chip tables using KO.

My cousin and I will be attending a bachelor’s party in Vegas in the summer and will play some blackjack.

I am thinking about bringing about $8K and play short sessions (45 min to 1 hr) at different casinos in Vegas, hit-and-run style. I will bet the minimum at the red chip tables while counting and will signal my cousin over when the count is high. My cousin would come over and play two hands, $200 each hand until the count drops and he leaves.

Please advise as to how to best signal him over, his optimal bet amounts, red chip- or green-chip tables, cover, etc. Thank you for your time.

 

[gamblingghost]

One must be able to commit hundreds of hours to the investment to have
a fair chance of coming out ahead. Anything can happen in the short run.
As for signaling. Have two caps. One red and one green. Put on the green one
for your cousin to 'go'. Put on the red one for him to 'stop it'. If bosses ask what you are doin just tell em they are lucky caps and you gotta change em a lot to keep the luck flowin. Or do somethin a little more sneaky like, turn your cap around to signal.

 

[Southpaw]

I have not played on a BP team, nor do I claim to have ever done so.

Nevertheless, I have thought before how I might do it. The least conspicuous signal that I have come up with is as follows:

During normal play, sit with good posture so that your elbows are not on the table, but when the count is sufficiently high, slouch over so that your elbows are on the table.

Perhaps this is a well-known technique that is watched for, but it is one that I independently thought of.

I think you should probably transfer the count using verbal signals, but this is assuming that your friend is a BP and not a "gorilla" BP. If he, indeed, is a "gorilla" then this will complicate things because you'll have to signal him every time he needs to make a BS departure, and you'll have to teach him which plays require "permission" (i.e., departure plays).

Also, don't make the mistake of taking insurance when your BP takes insurance. It simply is not worth the risk when you're playing nickels and your BP is playing multiple blacks.

Spaw

 

[Southpaw]

One must be able to commit hundreds of hours to the investment to have
a fair chance of coming out ahead. Anything can happen in the short run.
As for signaling. Have two caps. One red and one green. Put on the green one
for your cousin to 'go'. Put on the red one for him to 'stop it'. If bosses ask what you are doin just tell em they are lucky caps and you gotta change em a lot to keep the luck flowin. Or do somethin a little more sneaky like, turn your cap around to signal.

To be frank--and I think others will agree--the hat idea is a terrible one.

Spaw

 

[gamblingghost]

To be frank--and I think others will agree--the hat idea is a terrible one.

Spaw

Aw come on, you mean it seems a tad obvious!?? Look, you go puttin on
your signals on here and they are probably no good any more.

 

[kewljason]

Although I am a solo player and have no experience with team play, I am going to agree with gamblingghost here. Forming a call-in type team for a short duration like a weekend or so doesn't make much sense. Furthermore a two man call-in approach is not very efficient. Your cousin is going to be standing around an awful lot, perhaps hours at a time waiting for your call-in. The call-in approach usually has a number of spotters, so the big money player is constantly being called into action, as that's where your profits come from. Furthermore, the call-in approach is used to disguise getting down very large wagers. (high black level or higher) At the level of play you mention, you don't need a call-in approach. A better team approach would be for each of you to play seperate tables and spread your red ($10) to $200. The advantage this approach will be reduced variance and getting to the long term quicker which smooths things out. If sounds like you don't get to Vegas often so just bang away what ever the table minimum is $5 or $10 to $200. If you get backed off, no biggie as it you won't be back anytime soon.

 

[21forme]

When I played with a partner, we kept it simple. We would just stand up at the table. As long as you don't repeat it in the same pit more than once (not just the signal, but playing together at the same table), you should be fine.

 

[FLASH1296]

You are a rookie, as you readily admit.

This is not for blackjack rookies to attempt.

Too many ways for you to screw things up.

 

[kewljason]

I really wonder about the merits of the call in approach today, as it is so widely known about. I know it is still used and still used successfully, even by some of our very own family here. I have been approached a number of times by members of this site and the other, a couple highly regarded ones, and one very uncomfortable time by a stranger on the casino floor, which I pleaded ignorance and practically ran for the door. I know for a short time, team concept can really maximize your profits, as sounds the case with our Dye, but I really believe if you have any intentions of playing for a while, like several years, that team play puts you at great risk. Be interesting to hear thought from those who engage in team play.

I know from a solo player stand point, someone joining the table mid shoe betting black or higher is my worst nightmare. :sad: Immediately this person has brought attention to the table with such wagers. There really are only 3 possibilities. 1.) he is just a black level player randomly joining the table. 2.) he was called in by another player, if there are any, which is my first suspicious and I size up the other players, figuring in my mind who it could be, and 3.) that he is playing solo, was back counting and jumped in.

The vast majority of the time it is scenario number 1, he is just jumping in the middle of a shoe. (eating up the high cards coming out...:sad Since he isn't varying bets, I try to figure out by his play. Stand on 15, 16 vs 10. Stand on 12's vs 2,3? Not enough info as ploppies do that and even some 'bad' basic strategy players. taking insurance. A little stronger, but he wasn't around when the count was bad to compare whether he took it then. Doubling 9 vs 7 or A8 vs 5,6? now we are starting to get somewhere, but the truth is, if he joins late in the shoe when the count is high, I won't have enough time to really confirm anything.

And then the problem area. The end of the shoe and the shuffle. I would be leaving at this point anyway after a shoe with large wagers, so if this big better is leaving that is a problem for me. It begins to look like I am the one working with him. :sad: I could abandon my strategy and stay on and play the next shoe, certainly not going back to my small wager, maybe betting 1 or 2 blacks, but that goes against my whole style. I don't like to give anything back via camo. My edge is already too small to give any back. So I am forced to exit as quickly as I can. I try to exit before the other player, looking at the time and say something about already being late, an act the falls on deaf ears up above. All in all, thats a reason I don't mind NMSE tables.

 

[Craps Master]

It's a decent plan and will probably be fun for you and your cousin to attempt. It will give you some practice working together, too. Everyone is right that this method works better with multiple spotters so that a BP can hop around from table to table and get a lot of action in high counts, but you'll be able to get a little action in even with just the two of you. I don't expect your EV will be all that high, but it will be valuable as a learning experience on top of whatever EV you can get.

Realistically, you might be able to pull this off about once per pit per casino per shift. So, yeah, hit and running is key. After your cousin comes in, if the shoe ends or the count drops then, win or lose, he should leave and you should go somewhere else to start anew. You'll make peanuts in EV and variance will rule the day, but it might be worth doing, all the same.

 

[nicetrades200303]

Thank you for all the responses.

So as suggested by kewljason, if a better team approach is for both me and my cousin to play at separate tables, with $8K to risk, do we sit at the red, green, or black table and what is the max spread we should do for a 45 min to an hour hit-and-run play?

 

[BJgenius007]

Hello, everyone. I have been counting blackjack for about six sessions now at two different casinos. I play six deck, spreading 1-10, $100 max bet at the red chip tables using KO.

My cousin and I will be attending a bachelor’s party in Vegas in the summer and will play some blackjack.

I am thinking about bringing about $8K and play short sessions (45 min to 1 hr) at different casinos in Vegas, hit-and-run style. I will bet the minimum at the red chip tables while counting and will signal my cousin over when the count is high. My cousin would come over and play two hands, $200 each hand until the count drops and he leaves.

Please advise as to how to best signal him over, his optimal bet amounts, red chip- or green-chip tables, cover, etc. Thank you for your time.

First, you can roll over your sleeves or take your hat off to signal your cousin to join the table because of high count. The one I like is using the straw on your drink. You keep it towards you. If it points to the dealer, it is the signal that your cousin should join you immediately.

Then while he buy in the chips, you can pass the running count number to him by using chips maybe 3 green chips and 8 red chips (move these chips to his side, or on the front row, or the only pile reds on top of greens, whatever you guys agreed upon earlier) representing running count is +38.

Don't ever talk to him. And you can't run this on the same casino too many times. If your cousin bet black chips and won most of the times, they will review the tape and eventually find out the connection to you.

 

[BJgenius007]

Thank you for all the responses.

So as suggested by kewljason, if a better team approach is for both me and my cousin to play at separate tables, with $8K to risk, do we sit at the red, green, or black table and what is the max spread we should do for a 45 min to an hour hit-and-run play?

No, ideally you and your cousin play at the same table but he only play high count (say TC +5). You flat bet $5 and he flat bet $500, creating a 100 to 1 spread. This is what we saw on movie "21". Casino hates 100 to 1 spread and it can only be done using team play.

 

[kewljason]

No, ideally you and your cousin play at the same table but he only play high count (say TC +5). You flat bet $5 and he flat bet $500, creating a 100 to 1 spread. This is what we saw on movie "21". Casino hates 100 to 1 spread and it can only be done using team play.

Wrong on several levels IMO. Number 1. Don't you think the casino's are aware of the movie "21"? :laugh: As if they weren't aware of this approach before that, with so many books having been written describing it going back to Uston and even before that. That was my point, that this approach is commonly known today.

Number 2. You are advising a $500 max bet with a $8000 BR, Several bad hands with splits and doubledowns and they are out of money. :sad:

Number 3. $500 is a bad amount to use. It is a threshold point. If that is the range you are seeking, which I don't advise (see #2) I would go $400 or $450, not $500.

 

[prankster]

When your teammate calls you in and communicates the count he should leave the table and go looking for a new shoe to count. Send a PM to Bojack1 and tell him what you're planning-he runs teams and plays high stakes as I understand it. Good cards!:joker:

 

[apex]

Signals are the easy part. Come up with something on your own and don't post it.

Can your cousin count? If so, you will be better off with you both counting different shoes and spreading $5-$200. You can do a modified big player approach. When you wong out, go check on your cousin. If he is betting a lot jump into his shoe and do the same. If not, find a fresh shuffle. When your cousin wongs out have him do the same. You are both big players and spotters. At your betting level (the same level I play) you should have no problems, but to be safe hit a different casino after you finish a shoe with lots of max bets.

 

[Freightman]

Hello, everyone. I have been counting blackjack for about six sessions now at two different casinos. I play six deck, spreading 1-10, $100 max bet at the red chip tables using KO.

My cousin and I will be attending a bachelor’s party in Vegas in the summer and will play some blackjack.

I am thinking about bringing about $8K and play short sessions (45 min to 1 hr) at different casinos in Vegas, hit-and-run style. I will bet the minimum at the red chip tables while counting and will signal my cousin over when the count is high. My cousin would come over and play two hands, $200 each hand until the count drops and he leaves.

Please advise as to how to best signal him over, his optimal bet amounts, red chip- or green-chip tables, cover, etc. Thank you for your time.

So, you have been counting for 6 sessions and want to demolish Vegas with signalled team play. Not up to me to burst your bubble, however, I would suggest a long seasoning period of solo blackjack before you consider that idea. You are just not good enough yet, and the awkwardness of your inexperience would make you easy pickings for surveillance on a team excursion..

 

[Dyepaintball12]

I usually play with a team, BUT I have never done a BP-style. We always did EMFH and we would go on trips together with a shared BR but we never played at the same table, or even the same casino at the same time.

I wouldn't use a BP-style team unless I had a huge bank.

It seems to me that bringing your cousin in to bet 2x200 would be way to risky for your bank.

- Dye