xengrifter
Banned
So, what is your theory and or knowledge of how to alter your play if you encounter the mythical beast mode so as to retain the advantage?KewlJ said:
Wasn't there some gossip that some elite group of players had figured that out?
Another bad session, running out of money, over 200 hours in
- Thread starter JohnCrover
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Wasn't there some gossip that some elite group of players had figured that out?
Nightshifter
Well-Known Member
JohnCrover said:
Start believing that the decks are manipulated via grouping certain cards together to exploit CC and BS which makes up a large portion of the players
Doesn't matter the amount of players or who comes and goes because the house plays one way and the players (majority of them) play BS … so the cards are manipulated via machine or hand in a way to exploit this. Take single deck for instance... when I"m shuffling I can group together a slug of high cards over a few rounds and keep them together throughout the shuffle. The majority of players cut off the top... so this will put the cards to the back... won't happen every time but we're playing percentages here. So when you think you're going to get the high cards, streaks of low and neutral cards just keep pouring out giving you losing combinations for the player side. If I group the Aces together and they all come out at once or are cut to the back... guess what... there goes your chances of having a BJ Double downs... you'll get a low card and dealer pats because most of the high cards are grouped together and out of play We've had this so-called voodoo discussion many times here and this has been going on before most of you started how to learn some card counting strategy and implement it. Now this doesn't happen all the time, but it happens more often than not... especially when it's crowded because that's when it's most effective percentage wise. What's the purpose of the cut card... well to signal the dealer that this is the last hand but it's a marker as well so a well trained dealer can put certain groups of cards out of play over time. I would pick up the cards either left to right or right to left to start grouping them together... if you had 3,4,7 and I had 10,3,6 … I would pick them up and slide them starting from my left to right... sorta a quick scoop damn you lost action... so this would group 3,4,7,3,6 … now do an offset shuffle rinse and repeat... and it will encourage grouping of cards over time and you'll create a very bad situation for the unwary CC or BS player. One type of grouping you have to watch out for is the A,2,3,4,9,10 then the 7,8,9s … this is very detrimental to the player side... and if Aces are always grouped with low cards... you won't get BJs, and you'll hit low cards on split Ace's while the dealer will pat! Noisy decks that occur naturally and fade out are one thing... but when they're created purposely and perpetuated for a period of time... that's another
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Nightshifter
Well-Known Member
Boris Blackjack SimulatorBJgenius007 said:
Anyway, this happens quite often in most of the Indian Casinos... but this notion has been practiced via hand or machine for decades. We were doing it on the gambling boats in Florida in the 90's... during the wash (since the pack is in suited order) we would push like groups together from a spread of 2 decks … not all the time mind you... then shuffle in a manner to preserve and perpetuate these chunks of cards. I wish that everyone would band together and start to attack the industry because they're obviously doing this regardless of what casino is practicing it... I would create some scenes with groups of people watching as I pointed out what the dealer/machine was doing (after I was 100% sure after watching for some time) and what to look for, and be aware when not to play. I'm really disgusted on how much they're getting away with it and trying to make more and more people aware of what's going on. Like I said... and I know because I've been on both sides... you don't need a shuffler master in a single deck game... any honest dealer will tell you that... we hated it! Double Deck games (if the dealer wasn't green) can go at the same speed if not faster than using a shuffle master. So why does the casino pay $$$ to use these machines... well it's more efficient and less obvious to have the machines do it than have the coolers teach the newbies how to do it via hand... Why would a casino spend the extra cash to put shufflers on a single deck game??? LOL In addition to that... the machines keep track of the cards... so if a card is missing because some cheat palmed it to use on the next hand and didn't get back in the deck without the dealer or pit noticing, it'll alert the pit. Edge sorting... well this is why the dealer (hand shuffled game) turns half of the cards 180 degrees... destroys the setup.Can't be showing new dealers how to preserve the Ace to whack the player when he's putting out a big bet... Discard the ace with the deck in your hand, turning it upside down and slide the ace back to the top of the deck … looks like you discarded the ace in the card holder... but now it's back on top. Since it's 2 decks or more (this can done via shoe as well) you can have the SAME ace appear twice without an argument. Hesitate and wait if the player is upping his bet .. than presto deal yourself the Ace. Pretend to look at your watch, to bend the top cards for a peek to see if a ten is in there... or when you're picking up a bet or organizing your tray... seems innocent enough
but it's easier to have the machines put the cards in an order that exploits CC and BS which a majority of players put to practice... rather than explicitly cheat them via hand which can be recorded and reviewed. There's always an excuse why the machine put out 24 tens in a row! Nobody can see what's going on inside those big black boxes which are about as regulated as much as the FDA regulates food being imported into the country 
KewlJ
Well-Known Member
I don't accept everything you say as gospel, but I don't dismiss everything either.Nightshifter said:Boris Blackjack Simulator
Can't be showing new dealers how to preserve the Ace to whack the player when he's putting out a big bet... Discard the ace with the deck in your hand, turning it upside down and slide the ace back to the top of the deck … looks like you discarded the ace in the card holder... but now it's back on top. Since it's 2 decks or more (this can done via shoe as well) you can have the SAME ace appear twice without an argument. Hesitate and wait if the player is upping his bet .. than presto deal yourself the Ace. Pretend to look at your watch, to bend the top cards for a peek to see if a ten is in there... or when you're picking up a bet or organizing your tray... seems innocent enough
While I believe....make that know, cheating is possible with asms and probably csms as well, I think and hope it is less widespread than you make it sound. That is the case from my experience.
That said, the most interesting point you raise is why would casinos spend the money they do on Asms for single and double deck games? The time saved isn't going to amount to enough to make it cost efficient.
Maybe someone could ask El Cortez....home of last year's debacle.
JohnCrover
Banned
ASM's should still boost hands per hour on a single deck game.
ASM's are used in most modern poker rooms, and poker room shuffles tend to be trivial since it's not house money, and even they find it more efficient to use ASM's.
ASM's are used in most modern poker rooms, and poker room shuffles tend to be trivial since it's not house money, and even they find it more efficient to use ASM's.
Nightshifter
Well-Known Member
"...MWP, there is an issue with posting video online. The manufacturer of this product have taken extreme measures to protect themselves, regarding ownership of these machines. I have been strongly advised that IF anyone were to possess such a machine and post video online, they are setting themselves up for a heap of liability and trouble. (notice the wording there. :rolleyes…"KewlJ said:I don't accept everything you say as gospel, but I don't dismiss everything either.
While I believe....make that know, cheating is possible with asms and probably csms as well, I think and hope it is less widespread than you make it sound. That is the case from my experience.
That said, the most interesting point you raise is why would casinos spend the money they do on Asms for single and double deck games? The time saved isn't going to amount to enough to make it cost efficient.
Maybe someone could ask El Cortez....home of last year's debacle.
Oh this is very very true... not to mention that I was escorted out of a nearby casino for bringing this up at a blackjack table. Just like drugs, the little guys don't know much (probably don't want to know much) and the middle guys take the fall while the big guys reconstruct their agenda because it's harder to hit a moving target
As long as certain people keep quiet about this, everyone involved gets a piece of the action. They don't do this all the time, but just doing it at the right times/moments can generate huge yearly profits in contrast to keeping the game 100% fair... Like I had mentioned, I did this with the single deck game which ruined the player, especially if he was counting because he was expecting the 10 valued cards to fall... so he's betting into a false situation because I have a slug of tens in the back of the deck that I'm not going to deal out. Understanding all this and knowing what to look for to avoid it or exploit it if you know exactly how, only comes from a lot of experience. Basic strategy & CC are stepping stones to understanding the greater whole...Here's another player who was noticing something out of place...
"...My question today is not about craps, but about Let It Ride or, to be more specific, the Shuffle Master that is used at the table at that game.
Last week I was visiting the Hard Rock Casino in Hollywood, Florida (sorry to see that they have no craps table, but I am hopeful that it will come soon). Anyway, I was watching the Let It Ride game. There was an issue at the table where the dealer mucked his cards after revealing only one player's cards and before turning over the other player's cards. The dealer called the floor person over and after pushing a few buttons on the Shuffle Master, the floor person was able to determine who had what cards. The machine read the cards. The second thing that I noticed was that when it was time to change decks, I could swear that the Shuffle Master was able to perfectly sort the cards into numerical order by suit.
So, was I seeing things or can the Shuffle Master stack the deck and read the cards? If so, do players have a shot at ever winning at that game?
Thanks for your time..."
When the decks are not in ordahhhhh…. your papers are not in ordaahhhh
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Yes the i-deal shufflers can sort cards, but ONLY in sort mode. You'll see both red and green lights flashing during this.
As for more of your theories, no the casinos aren't cheating. We've been beating these machines on games like 3CP, UTH, MStud, etc., ever since they've been installed.
As for more of your theories, no the casinos aren't cheating. We've been beating these machines on games like 3CP, UTH, MStud, etc., ever since they've been installed.
BJgenius007
Well-Known Member
It is not called grouping. It is called clumping. Just Google "ASM clumping Blackjack".Nightshifter said:Start believing that the decks are manipulated via grouping certain cards together to exploit CC and BS which makes up a large portion of the players
Nightshifter
Well-Known Member
Shhhhhh… we don't use the C word here... it's called sequences or something else besides c*******BJgenius007 said:
I already known this 20 years ago and helped pioneer the concept Nightshifter
Well-Known Member
Sometimes... but we're talking about manipulating the order of the cards, not some phenomenon that occurs naturally on its own, even though clumping can occur naturally to a degree... If the dealer can manipulate the cards in some way, he will directly affect your outcome. If the clumping is naturally occurring, this is just part of the game... esp. multiple deck games. Some houses employ machines that don't do this, but knowledge on how the machine shuffles can be exploited as well via putting the cards in a certain order, prepackaged in nice 6 or 8 Deck blocks ready to play at your local Indian casinoLC Larry said:
Of course we would never show the player the cards because it takes up so much time... especially in an empty 25 min pit at the Hard Rock... Maybe we'll show the top deck, but the shrewd player would notice some odd pairing of cards... these pairings are perpetuated in the shuffler until it goes through the soaking cycle and becomes naturally random again... Again this is one way of doing it, but it's better if the shuffler can just create segments of cards that are randomly placed (we can't have the slugs in the same spot all the time because we'll be creating an exploitable pattern) that will most likely be cut out of play, or come out all at once in nearly a solid 20 push thus eliminating all those high cards right off the bat. Believe what you want, but this has been going on for a long time in one manner or another... Knowing what to look for to avoid or exploit this comes via A LOT of experience and counting is just a stepping stone into a larger world.
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KewlJ
Well-Known Member
It is important to note, as you did that this does occurs naturally at times. So you really have to prove, if even to yourself before making such a charge that, it is occurring outside the bounds of normalcy.Nightshifter said:
This is why last year when I figured out what was happing at a specific location that I posted about, I played and tracked over 200 shuffles (call it shoes if you want, although this was a double deck game). I flat bet making it a -EV proposition as I was only interesting in compiling data on the clumping. I know 200 shoes or times through the cards is a very insignificant number of trials. But 94 or 96% of the time (I forget which) the TC would reach either +4 or -4....true count not running count. 94-96% of the time! THIS is no where near normal for the game I was playing.
When I posted these numbers, Don S, first agreed that these numbers, while not proof of anything due to insignificant sample size, were at the very least unusual. He later seemed to amend that, indicating he didn't find it as unusual as he first indicated. I never questioned him as to why and he didn't offer details and I am not asking for that now. AS a person that plays the game in question a great deal....almost every year this game is among my top rounds played, I know TC's of +4 and TC -4 occurring in 95% of shoes are not normal. And just to be clear we are talking 19 out of every 20 shoes reaches a TC of either +4 or TC -4, depending on whether the clump of high cards was cut into play (resulting in high negative count) or out of play (resulting in high positive count).
I believe it was Stealth an experienced player himself, who on another forum said, something to the effect that an experienced player, someone who plays a lot is going to know something is just not right, even before he has figured out what it is. And this process is complicated by "selective memory" so you have to be sure to move beyond that and be sure you are seeing something unusual. Once my gut told me that something was "off", I chose the TC +4 number (and matching negative number) because, TC +4 is where I place my max bet on this game. I knew I was seeing this number and max bet opportunity far more frequently than normal. The TC -4, wasn't as obvious to me as I am usually gone or sitting out not playing long before a TC -4. But when I began flat betting for the purpose of tracking I knew that too was very abnormal for this game.
KewlJ
Well-Known Member
Now the thing is that nightshifter, or BJgenius, or myself or anyone else that has experienced this occurrence on a regular basis, is not going to convince anyone who hasn't that this is occurring beyond normal expectation. People immediately label us conspiracy theory and all that. But once an experienced player encounters this enough, he recognizes it and figures it out. And if he is smart, as I wasn't at the time , he also figures out how to use this to his advantage.
One other thing I will say is that I took the unusual step of acquiring a machine in question and had it in my possession for a while. If you have that opportunity, you begin to see a lot of different possibilities and capabilities and your thinking changes from "why" to "why not?"
, he also figures out how to use this to his advantage. One other thing I will say is that I took the unusual step of acquiring a machine in question and had it in my possession for a while. If you have that opportunity, you begin to see a lot of different possibilities and capabilities and your thinking changes from "why" to "why not?"
I remain very skeptical about machines manipulating the order of cards intentionally. But it is technically possible with ASM machines, since they can sort, etc. anyway.
But if it really *does* happen, I'd be delighted to learn more. Any time a casino departs from randomness they open up an enormous exploitation opportunity.
But if it really *does* happen, I'd be delighted to learn more. Any time a casino departs from randomness they open up an enormous exploitation opportunity.
KewlJ
Well-Known Member
I think the line I highlighted from your second paragraph is why some of the AP's that could confirm some of this....don't. I learned that the heard way last year, that even talking about this can be stepping on toes.johndoe said:
I don't want to put anybody on the spot, but I passed the machine I had on to another AP (he paid me for it), and I am talking a well known top table game player. I am sure he learned one hell of a lot more that I did about these machines and things to exploit them. I am not surprised I haven't seen him weigh in on this topic, at least not on any kind of open forum, but he is the kind of guy that if he did, there would be a lot less skepticism, and maybe more investigations, and that may be exactly what he wants to avoid, which is again back to protecting one's own opportunities, something AP's are notorious for.
But I do see more reports and talk of this, a few videos...how legit, I am unsure, as time goes on. So I do think this is slowly coming to light.
Now Nightshifter here, I haven't figured out yet. He recently has started discussions of this topic at several different forums, both about ASM and dealer manipulation. He claims to be a former? dealer/casino employee...I don't know. I don't know what his angle is. Like I said, he makes some good points, but I don't accept everything he says or claims.
Nightshifter
Well-Known Member
Thanks KewlJ for your support on this topic and contribution of information from your experience with this ASM card manipulation. Just as a side note, I just got back from PALA Casino and was observing a 6 Deck Shoe. One round consisted of cards A thru 7, mainly 3,4,5 & 6s with the dealer having a strong hand e.g., 5,5 or 3,6, causing the players either not to hit their 7,5 or double on their 6,5 or split 3s... There were 6 players total plus the dealer. Now the players who doubled drew low cards, with the exception of a stray 9 at third base. Dealer flips over the low hole card and pats with a Jack... okayyyyy…. but the next round was all 10 valued cards. Now what's funny is, the dealer says OHHHHH look at that... everyone has a twenty! Everyone was like oohhh and ahhh… and the dealer of course flips over a King and has a twenty as well... that's 14 10 valued cards in a row! I really feel bad for these unsuspecting people... to them it was an extraordinary event!
Now the next round 3 more ten valued cards came out till a 3, 5 and 4 came out and the dealer showing a 6, then all small cards on everyone else's hands creating stiffs on the right side and some doubles including another 8,5 (stray 8 came out) at the left side of the table. Well sure nobody hits their stiffs obviously, then the doubles double and 8,5 stays... dealer flips over a 4 for a total of 10 and hits with 4 then 5... boooooo!
Now this going from one extreme to the opposite kept up throughout the rest of the shoe and pretty much wiped out 4 of the players... the other 2 remained with some chips. Things didn't get better until about 1/4 deck before the cut card... So basically what KewlJ was saying of going from -4 to Plus 4 TC or this rolling sinusoidal motion was taking place. Maybe not exactly @ those numbers, but the point is the 10s were not mixed randomly in what would be considered normal distribution of 10s. Sure this can happen naturally, but not to this degree. This is induced clumping that really augments the casinos edge... especially when it's employed on busy weekends.
One could reverse engineer some of the patterns that are taking place here... it's not just clumps of 10s, low cards and core cards... but there are other type of groupings that result in poor combinations for player side of the table. 8,7,5,3,2 groups create very bad hands... esp. when splitting or doubling down... but since the dealer is hitting to 17, he usually makes the hand and wipes everyone out. A,2,3,4,9s is another one … 10,2,3s because most people hit 10,2 vs 2... some (who know BS well) will hit against a 3... and bust.. dealer usually has a 10 showing with 2 or 3 in the hole. You're creating a situation based on knowing what most of the players will do with certain types of hands... If the player has 3 ways of losing vs. the house only have 2 for a particular combination of cards... over time the house has increased it's edge. So it don't matter who gets what cards, but because the player plays one way and the house another, the player is going to lose more often which increases the bottom line for the house.... it's all about money. Sure, people jump in and out of the game or alter their strategy... whatever... it's over time though that if the casino in question is implementing this tactic, it will increase the drop by a considerable amount.
You could video an entire session in which this is happening from beginning to end at your own risk. Assemble the cards in that order exactly the way they came out and repeat the shoe in your own home and you'll see some interesting things taking place doing this!
Now the next round 3 more ten valued cards came out till a 3, 5 and 4 came out and the dealer showing a 6, then all small cards on everyone else's hands creating stiffs on the right side and some doubles including another 8,5 (stray 8 came out) at the left side of the table. Well sure nobody hits their stiffs obviously, then the doubles double and 8,5 stays... dealer flips over a 4 for a total of 10 and hits with 4 then 5... boooooo!
Now this going from one extreme to the opposite kept up throughout the rest of the shoe and pretty much wiped out 4 of the players... the other 2 remained with some chips. Things didn't get better until about 1/4 deck before the cut card... So basically what KewlJ was saying of going from -4 to Plus 4 TC or this rolling sinusoidal motion was taking place. Maybe not exactly @ those numbers, but the point is the 10s were not mixed randomly in what would be considered normal distribution of 10s. Sure this can happen naturally, but not to this degree. This is induced clumping that really augments the casinos edge... especially when it's employed on busy weekends.
One could reverse engineer some of the patterns that are taking place here... it's not just clumps of 10s, low cards and core cards... but there are other type of groupings that result in poor combinations for player side of the table. 8,7,5,3,2 groups create very bad hands... esp. when splitting or doubling down... but since the dealer is hitting to 17, he usually makes the hand and wipes everyone out. A,2,3,4,9s is another one … 10,2,3s because most people hit 10,2 vs 2... some (who know BS well) will hit against a 3... and bust.. dealer usually has a 10 showing with 2 or 3 in the hole. You're creating a situation based on knowing what most of the players will do with certain types of hands... If the player has 3 ways of losing vs. the house only have 2 for a particular combination of cards... over time the house has increased it's edge. So it don't matter who gets what cards, but because the player plays one way and the house another, the player is going to lose more often which increases the bottom line for the house.... it's all about money. Sure, people jump in and out of the game or alter their strategy... whatever... it's over time though that if the casino in question is implementing this tactic, it will increase the drop by a considerable amount.
You could video an entire session in which this is happening from beginning to end at your own risk. Assemble the cards in that order exactly the way they came out and repeat the shoe in your own home and you'll see some interesting things taking place doing this!
Nightshifter
Well-Known Member
… for an experiment... create this clump... 7,2,8,3,3,5,8,7,3,2,7,8,5 whatever order.... and just start to deal playing one on one … you'll be losing double downs... staying on stiffs... and the dealer will make a lot of hands wiping you out... 12 loses 3 wins 2 pushes … (I just did it now... mileage will vary) now just keep going and you'll see... because BS plays one way and the house plays another... this particular combination of cards exploits BS and will ruin the player a high percentage of the time The dealer playing house rules is going to considerably win more hands than normal over the player … and this is just one of several types of clumps that exploit BS.
The dealer playing house rules is going to considerably win more hands than normal over the player … and this is just one of several types of clumps that exploit BS.
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