AP vs Cheat

[aslan]

Loss of comps makes perfect sense when you back someone off... Why would you want them to keep them around?

You earned your comps according to the rules. You haven't done anything illegal. I think the law should rule that the casino cannot penalize you for doing something that is perfectly legal, nor should they be allowed to do business with the public, while discriminating against some customers for using their brains.

 

[AussiePlayer]

An extract from Steve Forte's Casino Game Protection reads:

"Often, when you compare the cheater to the legitimate card counter or advantage player, the only distinction you will find is one of legality"

I was quite surprised by this, what does everyone else think?

Personally I think you've taken this way out of context!

from Casino Game Protection Pg. 10

Sometimes there is no motive to cheat, just the ignorance and naivete of players. It starts with innovative players just looking to test the waters, as when card counters begin to explore alternative strategies. They play one day with a dealer who is blatantly exposing his holecard. It doesn't take long before they're spoiled, realizing that they win far more often with holecard information. They may spot the holecard from the front, side, even from behind. They may play with partners and signal back and forth. They group all holecard strategies together when, in fact, in the eyes of the law, some holecard strategies are legal, and others are not (which will discussed momentarily). Just like that, they transform from players to cheaters. Surprisingly, as an industry, we do the same thing and view some legitimate strategies akin to outright cheating.

What I've found most interesting about the characterization, hierarchy, and motive of cheaters, is that many similarities exist with legitimate players. Often, when you compare the cheater to the legitimate card counter or advantage player, the only distinction you will find is one of legality. The cheaters breaks the law, and the legitimate player does not, as you will see.

 

[creeping panther]

So what

In the end the casino will treat you both the same, AP and cheat.

CP

 

[blackjack avenger]

oh wise one's

In the end the casino will treat you both the same, AP and cheat.

CP

I agree
I don't know why so many on the site don't see the casual comparison of AP & cheat (criminal) causes APs a lot of problems!

It may be because those who don't understand have not been treated like a criminal yet? I guess naivety can be a good and I hope they never experience the casino cheat (criminal)
treatment.

I also agree with Aslan, the casino should not be allowed to discriminate in any way. The comps & games should not be denied to anyone for the reason of using their brain.

 

[Southpaw]

An extract from Steve Forte's Casino Game Protection reads:

"Often, when you compare the cheater to the legitimate card counter or advantage player, the only distinction you will find is one of legality"

I was quite surprised by this, what does everyone else think?

I think that there can be a fine line between cheating and advantage play. For instance, I was recently playing a game dealt by a dealer who had never dealt the game before. I sat down because of one particular aspect of the game that gave players in certain seats an advantage if they knew how to use the information. However, I soon realized that not only was the dealer sloppy--she also had no clue how the payoffs worked. There was a particular side-bet on this game that most play, but I wasn't. However, I was still being paid as if I was playing the side-bet. In effect, I was reaping 100% this side-bets wins while suffering no losses on it. Between the extra information and the payoff errors, the EV on this game was about 95% (whereas a good ccing game may be at 1.5%). I collected quite a.win from this game that was largely due to higher odds payoffs from the side-bet I wasn't even playing.

In conclusion, I'd rather be known as a cheater than a gambler.

Spaw

 

[Billy C1]

My view

There is NOTHING dishonest, illegal or unscrupulous about card counting and using it to your advantage. Probably holds true for STing too. HCing is a whole different animal with differing opinions by many members here.
For myself, I would consider it crossing that fine line that you mention, but only if I was making an extra effort to see the HC. If I see it by accident, how can I not play accordingly? I'm certainly not "holier than thou" but that's the way I choose to play the game.
In the end, it's true that CCers are treated as equals to cheats as I found out 20 or 25 years ago when first featured in the Griffin Book.

BillyC1

 

[Machinist]

Another angle to this cheating vs advantage play. If your going to cheat, know the consequences of your actions in particular venues.
If I offered you an opportunity to make a million dollars in a year, and the cheating offense was a 10,000$ fine including lawyer fees, no jail, not a felony, just a misdeameanor, would you play??
How about half a mil????
Just a thought
But heck what do I know with my 5th grade education, and absolutely nothing to contribute to this site..........(according to some)

Machinist

 

[sagefr0g]

my view just a little peeking what's so wrong?

oh, lemme see here, if i just can use my brain instead, yeah that's it close my eyes and kind of fantasize, like wow i can more than imagine, yeah i can think it through, that'll be my view. now i'm not really looking, even though i know what's probably there. i don't have to stare, oh well yah, maybe a bit of camo, or a short session and maybe no one will know that i might know, if i had of looked, which i wouldn't do cause i'm nice, not naughty.
hmmm, well maybe i do have to look but i'm just only catching quick little glimpses of the good & bad stuff, what's so wrong about that, even if my attentions are'nt wanted? and what are my intentions, is it to know the good stuff, oh no, no, no, it's my noble intention to use mathematics, to think as a higher order of being, why hecky me oh my, i'm so good i don't even really have to eat, much....... :whip:

 

[Billy C1]

oh, lemme see here, if i just can use my brain instead, yeah that's it close my eyes and kind of fantasize, like wow i can more than imagine, yeah i can think it through, that'll be my view. now i'm not really looking, even though i know what's probably there. i don't have to stare, oh well yah, maybe a bit of camo, or a short session and maybe no one will know that i might know, if i had of looked, which i wouldn't do cause i'm nice, not naughty.
hmmm, well maybe i do have to look but i'm just only catching quick little glimpses of the good & bad stuff, what's so wrong about that, even if my attentions are'nt wanted? and what are my intentions, is it to know the good stuff, oh no, no, no, it's my noble intention to use mathematics, to think as a higher order of being, why hecky me oh my, i'm so good i don't even really have to eat, much....... :whip:

Needless to say, we all draw that "fine line" for ourselves. I simply told you where mine is.

BillyC1

 

[sagefr0g]

Needless to say, we all draw that "fine line" for ourselves. I simply told you where mine is.

BillyC1

it's an interesting line of discussion, or area of commentary though, no?
probably so that we all draw that "fine line". i have no problem with where you or anyone else draws the line.
what is interesting, imho, is what we think we are doing when we draw the line, or what we imply about others when we state where we draw the line, intentionally or not. part of what irks me, and it's not you or anything you stated, is the intentional or unintentional casting of negativity, immorality, even possibly illegality upon advantage players versus the casinos which forthrightly challenge their patrons in games of chance. the importance of keeping the general public's impression of advantage players a good impression has been alluded to by others on this site, but alas, and i think unfortunately so, it's usually only directed at keeping card counters image crsipy clean.
what is the myth and what is the reality, errhhh is there a real line? i think there is, but i don't know it precisely.
the myth or reality is, in terms of Jude o-Christian stuff, interesting to muse over. Adam, Eve, the serpent and the apple, the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
just a little bite of the apple, instead of a whole heart'ed munch, is ok? :devil::whip::laugh:
whatever, just simply knowledge, without the good and evil 'rider', has in a sense become cast as taboo in a sense, in many ways. i've seen some people on this forum, in veiled terms, deride the simplicity of purposeful derived knowledge while putting up on a pedestal knowledge derived by mathematics and so called skill visa v 'brain power'. hogwhash i say, lol.
man, i sure don't know. what i think i know, is myth, or the reality of religiosity, or human morality, ethics, or just maybe mankind's role as played in nature, well errhhh mankind indeed crossed a line comparatively speaking with respect to other life forms found on earth, a long, long time ago.
in nature, big fish eat little fish, yadda, yadda, yadda, according to whatever advantage they have seems to me. mankind? well, that's in a sense a whole nuther story, but i think it has to do with knowledge and what to do with it, i guess. somewhere, along those lines maybe one needs a sense of responsibility, judgment and integrity, honor, strength, no doubt. thing is there is nothing noble or worthwhile when it comes to fooling ourselves about what it is we do.

 

[Billy C1]

Some good points made by you----

Frog,
Being the vindictive person that I typically am and being pissed about being put on the same pages of Griffin as outright cheaters makes it tempting to somehow "bend the rules" a little, I'll admit.
Now, I'm rarely (if ever) playing against the people that put me there and that's part of my reasoning, I guess.
As in life in general, I attempt to treat casinos the same as they treat me. I would NEVER EVER turn in a known HCer. Don't like casinos that much and besides that, they employ people to detect those very happenings so there's no reason to help incompetent people------uh oh, did I just get political again?

BillyC1

 

[sagefr0g]

Another angle to this cheating vs advantage play. If your going to cheat, know the consequences of your actions in particular venues.
If I offered you an opportunity to make a million dollars in a year, and the cheating offense was a 10,000$ fine including lawyer fees, no jail, not a felony, just a misdeameanor, would you play??
How about half a mil????
Just a thought
But heck what do I know with my 5th grade education, and absolutely nothing to contribute to this site..........(according to some)

Machinist

meh, ...........
would you make a bet you know yer gonna win, with yer pal, yer buddy who drove yah half way across the globe? almost take his wife & puppy? take his canoe? :flame::whip:
what if he was holding some of yer money? :laugh::devil::whip:

 

[aslan]

oh, lemme see here, if i just can use my brain instead, yeah that's it close my eyes and kind of fantasize, like wow i can more than imagine, yeah i can think it through, that'll be my view. now i'm not really looking, even though i know what's probably there. i don't have to stare, oh well yah, maybe a bit of camo, or a short session and maybe no one will know that i might know, if i had of looked, which i wouldn't do cause i'm nice, not naughty.
hmmm, well maybe i do have to look but i'm just only catching quick little glimpses of the good & bad stuff, what's so wrong about that, even if my attentions are'nt wanted? and what are my intentions, is it to know the good stuff, oh no, no, no, it's my noble intention to use mathematics, to think as a higher order of being, why hecky me oh my, i'm so good i don't even really have to eat, much....... :whip:

Did some one mention "eat much?"

 

[aslan]

it's an interesting line of discussion, or area of commentary though, no?
probably so that we all draw that "fine line". i have no problem with where you or anyone else draws the line.
what is interesting, imho, is what we think we are doing when we draw the line, or what we imply about others when we state where we draw the line, intentionally or not. part of what irks me, and it's not you or anything you stated, is the intentional or unintentional casting of negativity, immorality, even possibly illegality upon advantage players versus the casinos which forthrightly challenge their patrons in games of chance. the importance of keeping the general public's impression of advantage players a good impression has been alluded to by others on this site, but alas, and i think unfortunately so, it's usually only directed at keeping card counters image crsipy clean.
what is the myth and what is the reality, errhhh is there a real line? i think there is, but i don't know it precisely.
the myth or reality is, in terms of Jude o-Christian stuff, interesting to muse over. Adam, Eve, the serpent and the apple, the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
just a little bite of the apple, instead of a whole heart'ed munch, is ok? :devil::whip::laugh:
whatever, just simply knowledge, without the good and evil 'rider', has in a sense become cast as taboo in a sense, in many ways. i've seen some people on this forum, in veiled terms, deride the simplicity of purposeful derived knowledge while putting up on a pedestal knowledge derived by mathematics and so called skill visa v 'brain power'. hogwhash i say, lol.
man, i sure don't know. what i think i know, is myth, or the reality of religiosity, or human morality, ethics, or just maybe mankind's role as played in nature, well errhhh mankind indeed crossed a line comparatively speaking with respect to other life forms found on earth, a long, long time ago.
in nature, big fish eat little fish, yadda, yadda, yadda, according to whatever advantage they have seems to me. mankind? well, that's in a sense a whole nuther story, but i think it has to do with knowledge and what to do with it, i guess. somewhere, along those lines maybe one needs a sense of responsibility, judgment and integrity, honor, strength, no doubt. thing is there is nothing noble or worthwhile when it comes to fooling ourselves about what it is we do.

I especially like the part where Aslan the puddie tat (so named) looks into the mirror. :laugh:Funny!

 

[Southpaw]

I would NEVER EVER turn in a known HCer.

Oh, would you quit talking about HC'ing like that. I'm not saying you have to do it or even approve of it, but let's not make a bigger deal out of it than it is. You seem to suggest that HC'ing is the first step down a path that leads to heavy criminal activity.

Spaw

 

[aslan]

To me there is nothing close at all between cheating and advantage play. That blurring is the result of greedy casino owners and managers bemoaning their bottom line and the simple fact that someone might, just perhaps, have beaten them at their own game! Now that makes them mad! How dare someone have the chutzpah to beat us at our own game. We have a state-issued license to steal... or I mean... to entertain. How dare someone horn in on our business! Those filthy scumbag cheaters! I mean... the system was never set up tp allow anyone to win except us and maybe a few lucky people from time to time, but of course they will give it all back if they play long enough. But the nerve of some rotten little snip finding a way to defeat all those years of planning and deliberation that we put into our games! It's just impossible to cover every single minute possibility, and there will always be some cheat who does not want to go along with the program! We have a state license! What do they have? We are legal. Well, so are they because the wrong judge gave a ruling on that, but that may not be forever. They deserve what's coming to them and then some. What do they (the APs) think? That we're in business to give out money away?!!!

But it is easy to see that there is nothing that an AP does that can ever in a million years be equated with cheating. It's all in the eye of the beholder. I'm not saying that right and wrong are relative, but that the greedy eyes of the casinos lusting after every nickel and dime in your pockets are so distorted and warped that they would not know, in a phrase that zg has once again popularized, sh*t from shinola. Cheating, like stealing, is taking something that does not belong to you. It is legally violating laws protecting property owners, and morally, laws that speak to respect for the property of others. The casino offers to give its customers something with the black-hearted intention of actually taking from them, maybe not each one individually, but at least, in the aggregate. Any honest broker of games of chance would charge an admission fee when you entered, then give you exactly a 50-50 chance of winning each and every game. The admission fee would be set at a level to cover all their expenses and turn a reasonable profit. But no, they would have to set the admission fee so high that no one would come to their establishment, so instead, they lure them in with the promise of free play, ie, no admission, and the possibility of getting something in return. We all know what those "possibilities" for a profit compute to for the average player, another old adage-- "slim and none."

Now when times are rough, the casinos are bellyaching. They are laying off people right and left. They are trying to get the states to allow them to get an even greater advantage over their customers in the interest of "good business." We don't really know how well they are doing. We do know in the old days they were frequently found guilty of skimming profits off the top-- and those are only the cases where we actually "caught" them. With such an infamous tradition behind them, there is no telling what the modern day casinos are doing in the locked-down counting room. They look at us as cheaters. Per capita, we have a much better case for looking at THEM as the real cheaters. Sure, there are a small number of cheater customers, but compare that to the droves of innocent sheep being led daily to the slaughter. There are also the employee cheaters-- the casino culture seems to breed them. But what I am trying to say is that if anyone has a right to view the other as a cheat, it's the patrons of casinos, not the casinos who have that right. The vast majority of us are hard working people, contributors to society, raisers of families by our toil, honorable individuals. I would hate to venture what the majority of casino owners are, although they do employ a number of fine, upstanding and underpaid employees (maybe that contributes to some of them resorting to cheating-- just a thought).

Don't ever think of yourself as a cheater unless in fact you do cross the line. I don't care a whit about the legal line, except to keep myself out of jail, but I care a whole lot about the moral line. I have a conscience and I know right from wrong. My advice is to follow your conscience, and check it from time to time against century old guidelines for moral living, and you'll be all right. What you think of yourself is a thousand times more valuable than making some extra EV. Cheaters only cheat themselves in the final analysis and that is negative EV. Advantage play is honorable, in fact, wholly desirable, sensible, and worthy over the kind of gambling that foolishly risks hard earned money for a thrill or for the greedy thought of beating the odds or for the ego-centric view of oneself as lucky and superior to other mere mortals. I only regret that the general public has been brainwashed to view all attempts at gambling to be depraved and lacking any redeeming value. In point of fact, APs are not gamblers, no more than the casinos who operate the games-- APs are businessmen and women. Their earnings are equally as valid as those who invest in the stock market or pursue other activities that require the taking of calculated risks. Never be ashamed of AP. It sets you apart from the mindless rest. And that's my sermon for today. :laugh:

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Keeping in mind the fact that he prefaced this statement with the word "Often", and not "Always"; how is his statement incorrect?

For example: I don't mark cards. But I use every legal means I can think of to beat the casino. If card marking were legal, I would probably also be a card marker. So obviously; the only distinction between me and a cheater is one of legality. I fit into Forte's statement perfectly - and I know for a fact that I'm not the only AP who feels this way!

Exactly. Bending cards to play with an advantage is illegal. But if a dealer mishandles cards, inadvertently bending them, and you follow the bent card(s) for an advantage, you are an AP. Both the cheat and the AP are playing the same way for the same reason, with the exception of physically bending the card himself.

 

[jaygruden]

Welcome back AM! Good to see you back on the forum.

 

[aslan]

Exactly. Bending cards to play with an advantage is illegal. But if a dealer mishandles cards, inadvertently bending them, and you follow the bent card(s) for an advantage, you are an AP. Both the cheat and the AP are playing the same way for the same reason, with the exception of physically bending the card himself.

But that is a huge distinction!

 

[blackjack avenger]

we have court rulings

On what is legal or not in Nevada & NJ. I would imagine other areas may look to those laws. If there is a new technique the courts may decide that also.

AP is not illegial or cheating, so say court rulings.