Are There Any "Ghosts" Out There?

zengrifter

zengrifter

Banned
Richard Munchkin said:
I think a whole book could be written about what people have done to get a civilian out of a seat.
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I've discreetly bought them for a small amount.
Max Rubin, eulogizing D.V. Cellini, tells of meeting him at a flashing dealer's table,
Max already in the money spot first, so Cellini proceeded to vomit on him.
It worked, Max moved. zg
 
Gamblor

Gamblor

Well-Known Member
pit15 said:
I've stood and stared at ploppies for hours. Sometimes it works and makes them uncomfortable enough to leave, a lot of times it doesn't. If it's clear you're making someone uncomfortable, start standing closer to them.
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One time, there was this b*tch of a ploppy, I tried to buy in, but she would spread to two if I tried. She was already going at it with another player at the table, and they were rooting openly for each other to lose. I started joining in and teaming up with the other guy and rooting for her to lose, giving him hi fives when she lost a land, criticizing her play, etc., She left after 10 minutes.
 
Richard Munchkin

Richard Munchkin

Well-Known Member
During the SARS scare I kept coughing at the table and mentioned that I had just returned from Hong Kong. They cleared out within minutes.
 
Southpaw

Southpaw

Well-Known Member
Just in case anyone was curious, I returned to this casino and actually found another dealer that was near 100%. Of the two hours I was able to get in against this dealer, I only missed the read twice and relied on the BS for the game in these two cases. During the same evening, I found two other dealers that were about 50%, although someone more experienced would have probably been able to get a better read. (I did not play seriously against these two dealers, only playing them when needed to lock up a seat when the "lucky dealer" was about to return. Play against these dealers was for the minimum bet and included many bathroom / meal breaks).

So, at this store, I now have 2 dealers that are virtually 100% and 2 that are 50%ish that may become better as my eyes get better.

Spaw
 
Sonny

Sonny

Well-Known Member
zengrifter said:
But here is an example of casino lawyers STILL making an argument that "intentional" HC is still illegal cheating --
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Courts are like the internet - the facts can be crystal clear but people will still argue.

-Sonny-
 
S

Sucker

Well-Known Member
zengrifter said:
"Multiple" cases went to the NV Supreme Court? That would make HC etched in stone, I would think...
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As far as I know, only one HC case went to the NV Supreme Court; the Einbinder-Dalben decision of 1983. The Supreme Court CLEARLY ruled that intentional holecarding is legal, as long as the HC'er uses no device, as long as he's legally seated at the table, and as long as the information is available to anyone at the table. This landmark case did NOT address one way or another, whether or not 'spooking' is legal.

As to the issue of actually being arrested for spooking - VERY doubtful. No one actually gets arrested for this. All they ever do is 86 you. To go into court and try to PROVE that someone is spooking is just WAY too difficult, short of an outright confession. And even THEN, they would first have to establish whether or not spooking IS cheating. But this is why spooking is still in the gray area of the law - no one has ever been charged with it yet.
 
J

johndoe

Well-Known Member
Sucker said:
As far as I know, only one HC case went to the NV Supreme Court; the Einbinder-Dalben decision of 1983. The Supreme Court CLEARLY ruled that intentional holecarding is legal, as long as the HC'er uses no device, as long as he's legally seated at the table, and as long as the information is available to anyone at the table. This landmark case did NOT address one way or another, whether or not 'spooking' is legal.
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Just wondering: What if the information was only available to one or two of the seats, rather than the whole table?
 
R

revrac

Well-Known Member
johndoe said:
Just wondering: What if the information was only available to one or two of the seats, rather than the whole table?
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That same point came up in the case or at least in one of the ones i've read about. I believe they basically glossed over it saying, its up to the casino to protect the HC (actually part of the rules) and train their dealers properly.
 
S

snorky

Well-Known Member
I've finally spot an opportunity at a game and watched for a good few minutes at different angles. I went to express my excitement of the opportunity to my friend and pondered the ethics and risk I'm taking if I were to play the game.

To my surprise when I went back to the game (and all others of the same sort), the house waited for the player to make his/her bet before picking their cards out of the shuffle machine.

This is surely counter measure unless there is another explanation. Did I expose myself?
 
T

tthree

Banned
zengrifter said:
Now I see that spooking MIGHT be "only" a gray area. zg
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It is not a gray area, it is a green area. Green for the spook team until they get caught and green for the desert in spooky valley after they get caught.
 
T

tthree

Banned
Sucker said:
As far as I know, only one HC case went to the NV Supreme Court; the Einbinder-Dalben decision of 1983. The Supreme Court CLEARLY ruled that intentional holecarding is legal, as long as the HC'er uses no device, as long as he's legally seated at the table, and as long as the information is available to anyone at the table. This landmark case did NOT address one way or another, whether or not 'spooking' is legal.

As to the issue of actually being arrested for spooking - VERY doubtful. No one actually gets arrested for this. All they ever do is 86 you. To go into court and try to PROVE that someone is spooking is just WAY too difficult, short of an outright confession. And even THEN, they would first have to establish whether or not spooking IS cheating. But this is why spooking is still in the gray area of the law - no one has ever been charged with it yet.
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Isn't team play illegal. If it is, I don't see how spooking can't be considered team play.
 
zengrifter

zengrifter

Banned
Sucker said:
As far as I know, only one HC case went to the NV Supreme Court; the Einbinder-Dalben decision of 1983. The Supreme Court CLEARLY ruled that intentional holecarding is legal, as long as the HC'er uses no device, as long as he's legally seated at the table, and as long as the information is available to anyone at the table. This landmark case did NOT address one way or another, whether or not 'spooking' is legal.
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Technically Tony was "first-basing", but its still a HC play. zg
 
W

WRX

Well-Known Member
tthree said:
Isn't team play illegal.
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Is this a troll? Are you seriously suggesting that team play of any kind at casino games is illegal? Your history at this site suggests more sophistication!
 
N

Nynefingers

Well-Known Member
snorky said:
I've finally spot an opportunity at a game and watched for a good few minutes at different angles. I went to express my excitement of the opportunity to my friend and pondered the ethics and risk I'm taking if I were to play the game.

To my surprise when I went back to the game (and all others of the same sort), the house waited for the player to make his/her bet before picking their cards out of the shuffle machine.

This is surely counter measure unless there is another explanation. Did I expose myself?
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This is standard. In most HC type plays, you are flat betting and altering your playing strategy, not altering your initial bet. Those kind of games happen too, but in my experience, the process you describe is completely normal for games that use a shuffle machine. I'm sure they were doing this before you left too and you just didn't notice.
 
zengrifter

zengrifter

Banned
WRX said:
Is this a troll? Are you seriously suggesting that team play of any kind at casino games is illegal? Your history at this site suggests more sophistication!
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Some casinos, years back like Hilton, used to have table signage that read: "Any use of team play and/or signaling is against the rules and is considered illegal cheating by this establishment." So would that make it so?

Also, a teammate could be considered a "device" under the present Nevada device law. zg
 
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