Does anyone know if casinos can program ASMs to shuffle in a way so as to create a shoe which doesn't deviate far from a TC of 0 over the course of play? At my local store I have seen massive +ve TCs before, however, recently I have found shoes to go up to an RC of around +10, then down to -10, back up to around zero, maybe slightly positive again, then back down. The TC never gets beyond +2, maybe +3 at best. Perhaps I'm being paranoid because it is only a small sample size I have seen, but it has been consistently like that for a few weeks now.
ASMs
- Thread starter Koz1984
- Start date
HockeXpert
Well-Known Member
I've wondered about the abilities of an ASM and had my suspicions since I first saw them but everything I have read claims that they are merely "random" shufflers. I have been told that they count the number of cards they are shuffling and will alert you to a shortage/overage of cards. I've also been told that they will tell you the value of any missing cards but I do not believe ASM's have the ability to tell what the card values are. Unfortunately, I have never had the fortune to see one find a short deck first hand.Koz1984 said:
paddywhack
Well-Known Member
As far as I know it is all supposed to be a random shuffle. I would think there would be a lot of regulation that would make sure that there was no "loading of the decks" but one would have to actually have a machine to verify that statement.HockeXpert said:
If the machine doesn't shuffle the correct number of cards it knows and the load tray will pop up with the card(s) that haven't been shuffled. Usually one or two that for some reason didn't make it through to the other side. Have seen that on numerous occasions. I don't think it has the ability to track individual cards unless they're RFID embedded and the machine can read those codes.
HockeXpert
Well-Known Member
I've often wondered if a shuffling algorithm could be written that could neutralize a deck(s). I'm not so sure that gaming regulators could even spot such a program. I wonder if Ron Harris would know the answers?:laugh:paddywhack said:
paddywhack
Well-Known Member
I'm sure that would be possible but the machine would have to know the ID of each card thru RFID in order to accomplish it.HockeXpert said:
Freightman
Active Member
A programmer would have to view the code and then advise - possible - sure - ethical - not by a long shot - often wondered the same thing myself. I had 1 local sore, prior to being booted, where I did figure out the shuffling algorithm, and could actually cater to it. At another store, I had a really, really tough time winning on their ASM's. They became my prime contributor after going back to hand shuffles.paddywhack said:
I've actually seen the opposite in my experiences - while I know this is all within statistical norms, I've had shoes that jumped right off to an RC of +25 and some that went straight to a -20 or so RC that never seemed to neutralize. As far as shoes that went from -10 to +10 to -10 back and forth, I have seen less of that than the wild shoes.
NightStalker
Well-Known Member
No
Most of the ASMs doesn't have card-reading ability and which does- casino use it only to sort cards.. It'll be hard for a casino to define a cooler..Koz1984 said:
Blue Efficacy
Well-Known Member
If you're seeing a RC of 10 it's a fair shuffle. Lets say you get 5/6 pen on a 6D game. This time the cut card is placed differently. It goes to +10 in the fourth deck, and drops to -10 in the fifth deck. The card counter is favored to make money in that scenario.Koz1984 said:
Thanks for the replies guys. I should also add that they use an Angel Eye shoe, which they use for baccarat also (see http://www.angelplayingcards.com/en_casino/engineering1.php). These have the ability to track the cards that appear from the shoe. Perhaps this shoe is linked to the ASM and knows the pre-loaded sequence of cards and thus shuffles in a manner neutralising it for the next shoe in play? I used to deal at this particular casino and saw an old friend who still deals there currently. When I asked her about the shoe she informed me it was to keep track of the count of the cards, but didn't mention preferential shuffling. What an ingenious idea I thought! At the touch of a button on each tables personal info screen, the supervisors and PCs can pull up not only player/betting info, but the count too...All from a shoe designed to minimise dealer errors in baccarat.
Blue Efficacy
Well-Known Member
Again, if you're getting RC's of +/-10 there is no neutralization going on. 
Besides unless a confederate is doing a precise cut every time, it would be hard for a machine to shuffle up a cooler for the house every time.
Lastly if they are cheating, be glad you don't get huge counts, better to only lose minimum bets!
Besides unless a confederate is doing a precise cut every time, it would be hard for a machine to shuffle up a cooler for the house every time.
Lastly if they are cheating, be glad you don't get huge counts, better to only lose minimum bets!
Gamblor
Well-Known Member
Besides, I would think an ASM that keeps the count close to 0 would be a detriment to the casino. It would make BS more accurate, and only hurt the handful of card counters. A more dramatically fluxing shoe hurts BS players, and ploppies who somewhat follow BS.
Then again you don't really have geniuses working the mgmt of casinos, and they might not realize this.
Then again you don't really have geniuses working the mgmt of casinos, and they might not realize this.
Basic strategy IS accurate if you are not counting.Gamblor said:
But I think if casino would manipulate the shuffle algorithm, say, that the RC is always between -5/+5, one should find a system to beat the game - because you now have some information about the next card(s) independent of penetration. i.e. when RC is +5 next card MUST be a high card...
Casino would be terribly stupid to try that stunt.
Blue Efficacy
Well-Known Member
BS is accurate if you're not counting over many, many hands. In the short term, using bs in deck with a count of -10 obviously is not accurate for many hands.MangoJ said:
There is no difference in "accurate strategy given your information" and "accurate strategy given your information in the long run". First thing to learn: in a game of chance, short term results are meaningless.
Your (very) short term result (i.e. your hand) is much much more influenced on the top few cards of the shoe, than counting or basic strategy.
If you state that BS is not accurate (when not counting), because it gives you "wrong" decisions on any non-zero count: Then I state that counting is not accurate (when not being psychic), because it gives you "wrong" decisions on the next bust card you will draw.
Both statements are wrong. When you are not psychic, you don't care about the next card. You care about what you know for sure (i.e. your count) and deduce your strategy from that.
Likewise, when you are not counting, you don't care about the count. You care about what you know for sure (the rules) and deduce your strategy from that. The strategy when you only know the rules is the basic strategy.
Of course we don't believe in psychics - that means that a counting strategy IS accurate. If we don't count (for whatever reason), basic strategy IS accurate.
Your (very) short term result (i.e. your hand) is much much more influenced on the top few cards of the shoe, than counting or basic strategy.
If you state that BS is not accurate (when not counting), because it gives you "wrong" decisions on any non-zero count: Then I state that counting is not accurate (when not being psychic), because it gives you "wrong" decisions on the next bust card you will draw.
Both statements are wrong. When you are not psychic, you don't care about the next card. You care about what you know for sure (i.e. your count) and deduce your strategy from that.
Likewise, when you are not counting, you don't care about the count. You care about what you know for sure (the rules) and deduce your strategy from that. The strategy when you only know the rules is the basic strategy.
Of course we don't believe in psychics - that means that a counting strategy IS accurate. If we don't count (for whatever reason), basic strategy IS accurate.
Blue Efficacy
Well-Known Member
Basic strategy is based on a large amount of trials off the top. It is not based on a rich or poor deck. Therefore, a player will play one hand per shoe that BS is optimised for; the first. This is one reason why card counting works. It allows us to change strategy when BS is detrimental to our expectation. In these situations, why would it be any less detrimental to a regular player, even if they lack this information? After all, they are playing the same cards the counter is.
tribute
Well-Known Member
Since we are on the subject, please help me understand basic strategy as it relates to house advantage.The Basic Strategy Engine on this site states the % HA on a given game. Example: Six Deck, 0.44%. If I am correct, this means once I play through the entire shoe, using correct basic strategy plays, I would, on average, lose 0.44% of my total dollar amount wagered. Now, if I decided to go play on a CSM where the cards are continuously fed back into the machine and kept in play, doesn't that alter the house advantage, since I am always playing "full" decks?Blue Efficacy said:
Or, is the stated HA % of a six deck shoe based only on the first hand dealt off the top, as you imply?
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moo321
Well-Known Member
It PROBABLY wouldn't happen, but if this thing can read what the card is, what's to stop someone from setting up a cooler? Not necessarily the manufacturer, but couldn't someone modify it in their garage? I don't see why a small casino, or especially a foreign casino, couldn't build a cooler machine.
Maybe they could do a high-low stack. Or they could set it up so a certain cut is always suggested. This would require an accomplice at the table, but could be worth it to use on a high-roller. Casinos DO cheat occasionally.
Anything involving undoing the cut would be nearly impossible in a shoe game, but in a pitch game a good mechanic could undo the player's cut and restore the stack.
Maybe they could do a high-low stack. Or they could set it up so a certain cut is always suggested. This would require an accomplice at the table, but could be worth it to use on a high-roller. Casinos DO cheat occasionally.
Anything involving undoing the cut would be nearly impossible in a shoe game, but in a pitch game a good mechanic could undo the player's cut and restore the stack.
Moo, I am talking about Australia's largest casino, and quite possibly the largest in the southern hemisphere. They have been fined before for shorting decks, but as you said, it is unlikely that a large publicly listed enterprise would resort to such a thing. This practice would be reserved for fairly unregulated small casinos. However, if no law exists as to how a shuffle must be performed, then perhaps they are doing it free from any legal redress? The only thing mentioned under s64(1)(b) of the applicable legislation concerning this casino is that:moo321 said:
"all playing cards dealt in the course of gaming in the casino must be dealt from a card shoe or, if the Commission has approved, by notice published in the Government Gazette, of the use of another procedure or device for dealing cards, by that procedure or from that device".