Aspect of the demon 6/5 game ?

[Kasi]

but what really bothers me is cause i've started playing double deck games and i've just been going by full decks like how i did with six and eight deck games. so but i'm getting the unhappy feeling that maybe going by full decks in a double deck game isn't so good?.

Lol.

My next sober post will be my first :grin:

Just run a sim for, say, half-deck estimation for DD vs full deck estimation.

Sure, half-deck should be a little better. Then you decide if dividing by fractions is worth it lmao.

There are a bunch of tricks to make that easier :grin:

DD - where's that? You dog you. Great game. If you lose it, in 5 minutes you get to start over anyway lmao.

Not to mention the thrill of a roller coaster ride. Makes 8D look like riding in a 4-seat teacup for 6 year olds at the amusement park.

An extra 5 cards pen could be big in DD but meaningless in 8D.

I'm jealous.

 

[sagefr0g]

Lol.

My next sober post will be my first :grin:

Just run a sim for, say, half-deck estimation for DD vs full deck estimation.

Sure, half-deck should be a little better. Then you decide if dividing by fractions is worth it lmao.

that's what i was thinkin.

There are a bunch of tricks to make that easier :grin:

DD - where's that? You dog you. Great game. If you lose it, in 5 minutes you get to start over anyway lmao.

i'll pm you.

Not to mention the thrill of a roller coaster ride. Makes 8D look like riding in a 4-seat teacup for 6 year olds at the amusement park.

An extra 5 cards pen could be big in DD but meaningless in 8D.

yep problem is the roller coaster goes down after it goes up. :yikes:

I'm jealous.

don't be it's a crap game, just one i can bring myself to fool with cause of a relatively low table min.

 

[UK-21]

Well . . . that drew a bit more response than the last time I posed the query.

Since my last posting I've taken another look at Mr Snyder's profit index calcs. Making a broad estimation of the effect of blackjack pays 6/5 (I used an estimate of -130 and -150) I came up with the following, based upon:

Single Deck 6/5 heads up with 67% pen, 1-4 spread
Shoe games 5-7 players with 75% pen, 1-8 spread
Late surrender
Double after splits

8 Deck Shoe.
Total 23

6 Deck Shoe.
Total 40

SD 6/5.
Total -13 and +7
Increasing the spread to 1-8 results in -3 and 17 respectively.
Increasing the spread to 1-12 results in +7 and +27 respectively.

Assuming my estimate of the 6/5 impact is not a million miles off, what the above shows is that with a 1-12 spread there's not a huge amount in it. If anyone wishes to validate my estimate, and come up with something more precise (I don't know how Mr S calculated his original indexes) please do.

The advice given by Cardcounter0 of "DON'T PLAY EITHER GAME" is, of course, sound and shouldn't be disputed - they are all cr@p games, and of no interest to anyone intending to put enough time in at the tables to outrun the spectre of Std Dev and make some money. But if you accept that the Std Dev in the game generally will outweigh the EV for most low hours recreational players, then it would seem there's little to choose between them. They're all a gamble, in the same way as dropping a chip on a roulette table is (although the house edge on 6/5 blackjack still offers better than that of single zero roulette by more than 1.2%).

 

[sagefr0g]

...

Just run a sim for, say, half-deck estimation for DD vs full deck estimation.

Sure, half-deck should be a little better. Then you decide if dividing by fractions is worth it lmao.

....

ran the full deck estimation DD vs the quarter deck estimation DD.
only a differance of 0.5% for ROR. where quarter deck is 1.3% ROR and full deck is 1.8% ROR.
guess what i'm goin with.

 

[Kasi]

The advice given "DON'T PLAY EITHER GAME" is, of course, sound and shouldn't be disputed - they are all cr@p games, and of no interest to anyone intending to put enough time in at the tables to outrun the spectre of Std Dev and make some money. But if you accept that the Std Dev in the game generally will outweigh the EV for most low hours recreational players, then it would seem there's little to choose between them. They're all a gamble, in the same way as dropping a chip on a roulette table is (although the house edge on 6/5 blackjack still offers better than that of single zero roulette by more than 1.2%).

No big deal.

No game is inherently a crap game until it's defined by rules, pen, spread etc.
So I'm glad to see you got a little more specific above lol.

Yes, they're all a gamble, but I wouldn't compare playing with +EV to playing roulette.

The difference being, in a +EV game, you might, after a while, be 1 stan dev down from expected and still be even. In a -EV game, if you are 1 stand dev down after a while, you are not even.

But you have experienced the same "luck".

 

[Kasi]

only a differance of 0.5% for ROR. where quarter deck is 1.3% ROR and full deck is 1.8% ROR.
guess what i'm goin with.

Let me think a moment

Does this mean fractions are worth learning? :grin:

Just curious, no big deal, if it's easy, what did win rate change by?

 

[sagefr0g]

Let me think a moment

Does this mean fractions are worth learning? :grin:

Just curious, no big deal, if it's easy, what did win rate change by?

who ever thought of that jive a$$ divide by a fraction and flip the mofo upside down sh!t mus be krazy. :joker: i'm gettin in the spirit lmao.

weird the by exact card was $13.19/hr and the by full deck was $13.93 . it is what it is lol.

 

[Kasi]

who ever thought of that jive a$$ divide by a fraction and flip the mofo upside down sh!t mus be krazy. :joker: i'm gettin in the spirit lmao.

weird the by exact card was $13.19/hr and the by full deck was $13.93 . it is what it is lol.

You got it lmao. Just flip the mofo upside down sh!t lol.

Hey, for 74 cents an hour, I wouldn't learn fractions either lmao.

Happy birthday buddy Another day older and deeper in debt, as the song goes

 

[UK-21]

No big deal. Yes, they're all a gamble, but I wouldn't compare playing with +EV to playing roulette.

Fair comment. There are different degrees of gambling. But if you played any of the games above you wouldn't be playing with a +EV very often.

I posted the query as there's lots of emotive stuff written around 6/5 games but little in the way of comparisons of different conditions (based on some hard numbers). Just comparing the off-the-top house edge is a misnoma, as the edge will alter with every hand dealt and more so in a single deck game. Yes, of course it has a BIG effect on the EV when applying a BS approach, but what about those who can spot when the edge has shifted in their favour? I suspect that the reason nobody on this forum jumped in with an instant answer (although Cardcounter0's arguements are all sound) was that most players who count wouldn't play a 6/5 game on principle, and as a consequence have never considered exactly what the impact would be. For those playing BS, the 6/5 game should clearly be avoided. But for low hours, recreational players who count I don't think the difference between playing 6/5 SD in LV, or the crowded 6-deck ENHC rules games that we have to suffer here in the UK is really that much.

One thing I have learned about blackjack in the last few months is that many myths surround it. Ask any of the players queuing up to play a 6 or 8 deck shoe (with only 60% penetration) why they're waiting when all of the 6/5 games dealers are twiddling their thumbs and I'm sure they'll laugh (thinking you're stupid) and say something along the lines of "I've a shot at winning with this one". Hmmm . . . .

 

[sagefr0g]

Fair comment. There are different degrees of gambling. But if you played any of the games above you wouldn't be playing with a +EV very often.

I posted the query as there's lots of emotive stuff written around 6/5 games but little in the way of comparisons of different conditions (based on some hard numbers). Just comparing the off-the-top house edge is a misnoma, as the edge will alter with every hand dealt and more so in a single deck game. Yes, of course it has a BIG effect on the EV when applying a BS approach, but what about those who can spot when the edge has shifted in their favour? I suspect that the reason nobody on this forum jumped in with an instant answer (although Cardcounter0's arguements are all sound) was that most players who count wouldn't play a 6/5 game on principle, and as a consequence have never considered exactly what the impact would be. For those playing BS, the 6/5 game should clearly be avoided. But for low hours, recreational players who count I don't think the difference between playing 6/5 SD in LV, or the crowded 6-deck ENHC rules games that we have to suffer here in the UK is really that much.

One thing I have learned about blackjack in the last few months is that many myths surround it. Ask any of the players queuing up to play a 6 or 8 deck shoe (with only 60% penetration) why they're waiting when all of the 6/5 games dealers are twiddling their thumbs and I'm sure they'll laugh (thinking you're stupid) and say something along the lines of "I've a shot at winning with this one". Hmmm . . . .

yep reality sucks doesn't it? and then there is luck. lol
and bad luck :whip:
so but anyway the vision of 6/5 dealers twiddling their thumbs is sweet.

 

[Kasi]

Fair comment. There are different degrees of gambling. But if you played any of the games above you wouldn't be playing with a +EV very often.

You'll never be playing roulette with a +EV. You could likely be playing all of the BJ games with a constant +EV on every hand.

...but little in the way of comparisons of different conditions (based on some hard numbers). ..most players who count wouldn't play a 6/5 game on principle, and as a consequence have never considered exactly what the impact would be. For those playing BS, the 6/5 game should clearly be avoided.

If you want hard numbers, buy a sim and compare any games you want. I'd like to think most counters would reject no game on principle alone. Maybe someday there will be a 6-5 SD game dealt to the last card that allows mid-shoe entry. Or a min to max table limit spread with no heat. Maybe the casino thinks the way you do and feels no counter would ever play that game and don't even worry about large spreads.

Even BS players should keep their minds open. Play 120 hds/hr at multideck with a 0.7% HA or 50 hds/hr at a 1.4% SD 6-5 game?

Play a $5 min SD 6-5 game when the alternative is a $15 min shoe game even when the hds/hr may be identical?

 

[sagefr0g]

You'll never be playing roulette with a +EV. You could likely be playing all of the BJ games with a constant +EV on every hand.

excepting maybe for some match play far out stuff maybe.

If you want hard numbers, buy a sim and compare any games you want. I'd like to think most counters would reject no game on principle alone. Maybe someday there will be a 6-5 SD game dealt to the last card that allows mid-shoe entry. Or a min to max table limit spread with no heat. Maybe the casino thinks the way you do and feels no counter would ever play that game and don't even worry about large spreads.

Even BS players should keep their minds open. Play 120 hds/hr at multideck with a 0.7% HA or 50 hds/hr at a 1.4% SD 6-5 game?

Play a $5 min SD 6-5 game when the alternative is a $15 min shoe game even when the hds/hr may be identical?

yeah 6-5 sd i think was one of crapsmaster's favorites. probably cause he could spread to high heaven and or hole card them maybe.
but how ugly would a 8 deck 6-5 game be?