Automatic shuffling machines and basic strategy.

[AnIrishmannot2brite]

It's hard to find good games in my neck of the woods. Even the Indian casinos are a long drive and only one of the two offers decent deck penetration.

So we have a thing called "21st Century Blackjack". You've heard of it: Stay under the dealers bust number and you push. I don't think it much mitigates the loss of the natural paying 3:2. You get even money on the blackjack. Worst of all there are the automatic shuffling machines.

Never-the-less I can't seem to stay totally away from the local madhouse. Maybe it's because I drive by there nearly every day and have never lost money the six times over there. I'm so candy ass. Soon as I'm up near to or over three figures I cash out. So I go there either on Friday or Thursday every other week. Just to make sure I keep my nerve. Also the dealer deals fast. Even without a real shuffle it's good practice counting.

It's a low buy in too. $5.00 to $600.00. Easier to triple and quadruple these limits in betting units.

OK I know the odds aren't great but again it tests my nerve. I play basic strategy adjusted somewhat for long runs of low cards between the shuffling machine's grind.

And I seem to always win a little after a short session. Then I turn around and split. Quick!

Other helpful thing is that I'm "polishing my act". I intentionally hesitate just a little when hitting my sixteen against the dealers ten. Today I converted my only sixteen to a 21. Receiving the coveted five card at just the right time. On a quadrupled bet too.

Doubled the nine against dealers six, won.

Lost maybe three hands in a row at first but then there was a huge dump of low cards without a shuffle. I figured more aces in the tray. Correct. That's when I doubled and then quadrupled.

The ploppies! These guys trying to lose? Drunk? Who knows! The guy next to me doubles his thirteen against the dealers six card. SCHtooPID! He doesn't bust but loses anyway...

Has anyone played basic strategy with automatic shuffling machines and come out on top in the long run?

How about strategies of beating the shuffling machine at it's own tricks?

 

[shadroch]

There is nothing wrong with playing with an automatic shuffling machine.Is that what you are doing or are you playing against a Continuos shuffle machine? These should be avoided.
The rest of your post belongs in the voodoo section.

 

[AnIrishmannot2brite]

There is nothing wrong with playing with an automatic shuffling machine.Is that what you are doing or are you playing against a Continuos shuffle machine? These should be avoided.
The rest of your post belongs in the voodoo section.

My fault. Terminology breakdown. They are continuous shuffle. I've bet only small amounts and been lucky so far.

Going with my intuition, pure B/S have made a small profit the times I've been there and left soon afterwards. The regular shuffling casinos are a long ride. I'll go there when I can but can't do so often.

The purpose of playing these "ruinous" machines has largely been to maintain my nerve and curiosity.

Voodoo? I'm not arguing for progressive strategies, psychic thoughts or whatnot. No time for that.

 

[double4more]

Hate to break it to you AnIrishmannot2brite, but you can't really count when you are playing against a CSM so I wouldn't consider it good practice. You ask too many neophyte questions and make too many statements that place you far from the category of an AP. (If you truly had a TC that warranted a bet 4 times your minimum, you most likely should have surrendered or stood, depending on what rules you were playing with.) As such, you should not be so critical of the ploppies but instead be more realistic, think about what you are really doing when you approach the game, and question whether or not you are actually in the category of ploppies.

 

[AnIrishmannot2brite]

Hate to break it to you AnIrishmannot2brite, but you can't really count when you are playing against a CSM so I wouldn't consider it good practice. You ask too many neophyte questions and make too many statements that place you far from the category of an AP. (If you truly had a TC that warranted a bet 4 times your minimum, you most likely should have surrendered or stood, depending on what rules you were playing with.) As such, you should not be so critical of the ploppies but instead be more realistic, think about what you are really doing when you approach the game, and question whether or not you are actually in the category of ploppies.

Dude,

I play basic strategy near perfect and can count down quick. Really fast.

When at the real tables in NV or the Indian gaming rooms I play with an advantage. Maybe not down to the smallest decimal point but have seen good results. Appreciate your concern.

While I may not know all the abbreviations my game still works.

What I had seen at the CSM's was a large amount of low cards followed a few hands later by some high cards. Perhaps with a little research I can predict a way to learn the expectation in the future. Then again maybe not. In the meantime the deal is so quick that it resembles the really good games out east of me. Good practice so long as i don't bet too much nor expect to achieve a real advantage merely from executing basic strategy.

 

[shadroch]

Dude,

I play basic strategy near perfect and can count down quick. Really fast.

When at the real tables in NV or the Indian gaming rooms I play with an advantage. Maybe not down to the smallest decimal point but have seen good results. Appreciate your concern.

Based on what? Perfect BS is not playing with an advantage. Having good results does not equal playing with an advantage.

While I may not know all the abbreviations my game still works.

What I had seen at the CSM's was a large amount of low cards followed a few hands later by some high cards. Perhaps with a little research I can predict a way to learn.....

You are thinking there is a way to beat CSMs based on what you have seen.That is worse than ploppy thinking. At least they don't know any better. You should.

 

[AnIrishmannot2brite]

Dude,

I play basic strategy near perfect and can count down quick. Really fast.





When at the real tables in NV or the Indian gaming rooms I play with an advantage. Maybe not down to the smallest decimal point but have seen good results. Appreciate your concern.


SHADROCH REPLIES
Based on what? Perfect BS is not playing with an advantage. Having good results does not equal playing with an advantage.



While I may not know all the abbreviations my game still works.

What I had seen at the CSM's was a large amount of low cards followed a few hands later by some high cards. Perhaps with a little research I can predict a way to learn.....


SHADROCH REPLIES
You are thinking there is a way to beat CSMs based on what you have seen.That is worse than ploppy thinking. At least they don't know any better. You should.

Is your point to try and "educate me" or just to act like a jerk?

My guess is that it is the later.

 

[shadroch]

What makes you think you are playing at an advantage?
Playing perfect BS is not playing with an advantage.Trying to figure out a way to beat a CSM is not playing with an advantage.
Yes,I'm trying to educate you. Playing at a disadvantage but winning does not equal playing with an advantage.You can either learn how to play with an advantage,or not. I don't particulary care. But you have to recognize what it is that gives you an advantage. Winning is not it.Plenty of ploppies win short-term,plenty of advantage players lose short term.
You've been here long enough that you should be able to see that you are not playing with any sort of advantage.You play a game that has bad rules,CSMs and you don't count,holecard,or any other advantage plays that I've read.
So,once more- What is the advantage you think you have? Please don't tell me its the ability to detect patterns in the flow of the cards.

 

[AnIrishmannot2brite]

What makes you think you are playing at an advantage?
Playing perfect BS is not playing with an advantage.Trying to figure out a way to beat a CSM is not playing with an advantage.
Yes,I'm trying to educate you. Playing at a disadvantage but winning does not equal playing with an advantage.You can either learn how to play with an advantage,or not. I don't particulary care. But you have to recognize what it is that gives you an advantage. Winning is not it.Plenty of ploppies win short-term,plenty of advantage players lose short term.
You've been here long enough that you should be able to see that you are not playing with any sort of advantage.You play a game that has bad rules,CSMs and you don't count,holecard,or any other advantage plays that I've read.
So,once more- What is the advantage you think you have? Please don't tell me its the ability to detect patterns in the flow of the cards.

I never stated that i thought there was any particular advantage to CSM's. In fact i indicated the exact opposite. Maybe not explicitly but close to it. That was the reason why my appearances in those rooms was brief. My intellect and my gut said that the odds were slightly in the house's favor.

So after a few hands I split the joint. No harm done even if luck had not been on my side. I didn't expect to make money but won some anyway. Perhaps there is a system that can detect subtle sequences in CSM's as Zen/G indicated in the early 1980 models existed. I won't risk much in the meantime trying to find out.

One of my issues with blackjack has been to do the right thing even when it seems destined to often lose. Like the described hitting of my hard sixteen against dealers ten. I used to avoid these proper procedures even though I knew that statistically it was proper thing to do. So by receiving the five card to 21 the other day I have now gained a little positive reinforcement of that matter by showing some guts and doing it.

It's the comparison of practicing a musical instrument and playing it professionally. HUGE difference.

So later in the year when i head to the real games where they don't shuffle often I will be a little better primed to stick to B/S.

I learned to count fairly well before i even learned Basic Strategy. So part of my learning process was to do the right thing regardless. One of my early faults was to choose "not to die by my own sword". Translation: Early on I avoided going bust almost no matter what. Despite staying even with the count my game suffered for the obvious reasons.

 

[shadroch]

Thats all well and good but none of that gives you an advantage.

 

[AnIrishmannot2brite]

Thats all well and good but none of that gives you an advantage.

It's just for practice. Again: Never said I thought there was an advantage other than the duplication of many real gaming conditions. The CSM's would simply duplicate the condition we get at a neutral deck. Or in the long run they would.

So I'd never double any eights on a CSM as i wouldn't know if a lot of high cards were available or not. Nor split tens in an unusually high count because it wouldn't technically ever exist. That and any other deviations from B/S that counting would require.

It's just the determination to stick to Basic Strategy that i like to reinforce. And with a very low buy in i can test the waters without much risk. The only real casino is a two and a half hour drive away. And they usually require a fifteen dollar buy in on weekends.

The next closest Indian casino has an even higher buy in at $25.00 and they use six decks shuffled every three. I did make a lot of money there a few weeks back but that was due to an extremely high running count towards the third deck. Not the kind of situation that is dependable nor likely to repeat itself in an average evening. I just Wonged in at a high count and proceeded to clean out the joint when it went even twice as high as that.

 

[shadroch]

I don't want to harp on this,so this is my lst post on this subject.

You state that when you sit at the tables,you play with an advantage.I still don't see any basis for you saying that. Everything you describe seems to indicate you are in fact at a disadvantage.
Then you state that you play here so you can reinforce your playing perfect BS,yet go on to say that you don't split 8s as you don't know the count. How is this practicing BS?

 

[AnIrishmannot2brite]

I don't want to harp on this,so this is my lst post on this subject.

You state that when you sit at the tables,you play with an advantage.I still don't see any basis for you saying that. Everything you describe seems to indicate you are in fact at a disadvantage.
Then you state that you play here so you can reinforce your playing perfect BS,yet go on to say that you don't split 8s as you don't know the count. How is this practicing BS?

NOT split eights? You got to be kidding me! I would never say that...

 

[shadroch]

NOT split eights? You got to be kidding me! I would never say that...

My mistake,you said not double any eights. I misread it.My apologies.

 

[AnIrishmannot2brite]

My mistake,you said not double any eights. I misread it.My apologies.

Although when near the limit of my bankroll I don't particularly relish the thought of splitting eights against dealers Ace...

Pessimist definition: A person, whom when opportunity knocks, complains about the noise.

That reminds me of the time I got 4 aces in a row against dealers weak up card. Splitting all of them required reaching into my pocket to buy more chips. More than i had alloted for the game. But she just kept dealing rockets and I kept splittin' them!

Doubled one and the dealer went bust. So it was a win five times greater than original expectation. Definitely a good thing. Never-the-less my thinking wasn't all positive at the time. It would be now if that occurred, but not at the time.

 

[21forme]

If you don't mind me asking, where do you play where you can split Aces 4 times?

 

[AnIrishmannot2brite]

If you don't mind me asking, where do you play where you can split Aces 4 times?

Most of the places around here suck. I mean they are really BAD. The place in discussion was awful but again, I just wanted to stay in practice form.

In fact it was the "Oaks Card Room" in Oakland. Terrible joint for many ways:

1. So called "no Bust" 21 but you get even money on a natural.

2. One dollar buy in each hand unless you bet $100.00 or more. a ten percent loss right off the top of a ten dollar bet.

3. Eight decks with wild cards.

Now if that doesn't drive you away this would: The place is known for big arguments between players. That and anyone can place a bet over your shoulder on your own piece of felt. So you bet fifty and the stranger puts in sixty dollars? Means he gets to choose to hit or stay. Not you.

Doesn't seem worth it even if you can split aces four times.

All said back counting is a possibility but with eight decks it takes an hour of observation sometimes to get through the cards. Then you either have to find an open seat (rare) or bully someone else's hand by reaching over his shoulder to lay down your chips.

And even in a plus 30 running count late in the deck the dealer could still get one of the eight wild cards.

But you can split aces as much as you want.

Me? I avoid the room except when killing time in Oakland. It's a place to hang out while waiting for an appointment. Over all: AVOID that place!

 

[double4more]

"I just wanted to stay in practice form."

What kind of #@$%! statement is that? Given the rules you say you face and the content of the posts you have made, it appears to me that you are just another gambler masquerading as someone who has [AP] knowledge. It is not difficult to refresh one's basic strategy knowledge if one has not played in some time, especially since most of it is common sense. If you truly do want practice, the smart thing to do would be to go get some practice software such as Casino Verite and not risk money on negative EV games. Heck, you could just use the strategy game on hitorstand.net and/or the practice game on bodog. Or, if you really feel that you need the casino environment, just observe the games without ever placing even a single bet. You could back count if you had an opportunity to observe a game dealt from a shoe or a pitch game, and again, you would not have to place any bets. It sounds to me that you crave the action more than anything else, but that's just my opinion.

In any event, it is your money and most certainly your prerogative to risk it any way you feel you need to. I have no more comments to make in this thread.

 

[AnIrishmannot2brite]

"I just wanted to stay in practice form."

What kind of #@$%! statement is that? Given the rules you say you face and the content of the posts you have made, it appears to me that you are just another gambler masquerading as someone who has [AP] knowledge. It is not difficult to refresh one's basic strategy knowledge if one has not played in some time, especially since most of it is common sense. If you truly do want practice, the smart thing to do would be to go get some practice software such as Casino Verite and not risk money on negative EV games. Heck, you could just use the strategy game on hitorstand.net and/or the practice game on bodog. Or, if you really feel that you need the casino environment, just observe the games without ever placing even a single bet. You could back count if you had an opportunity to observe a game dealt from a shoe or a pitch game, and again, you would not have to place any bets. It sounds to me that you crave the action more than anything else, but that's just my opinion.

In any event, it is your money and most certainly your prerogative to risk it any way you feel you need to. I have no more comments to make in this thread.

You mean you have no more "troll posts" to put on this page, huh?

 

[AnIrishmannot2brite]

Jeez we have seen a LOT of troll posts here lately. By these high and mighty types with condescending attitudes of "We're only here to 'help' you" bull crap...

"Masquerading as an AP player"? What kind of crap is that on a public forum?

Here's what I do when faced with someone I seriously disagree with: Take it to a private message note.

However none of my posts have been designed to enlighten anyone. Only to open up discussion. Well NOW I'm taking this crap down front and center:

If YOU want to be treated as a gentleman get a little knowledge of public forum decorum.