backcounting/team play

[godeem23]

Expert help wanted please!

Hi there. I'm a newbie to this board but not new to the game. I've read quite a bit and own multiple books. Unfortunately, the books don't cover everything. Okay, here's the deal. My partner and I want to hit the casinos using a two person system. I'll be the small better, betting flat 1 unit per hand, my partner will be the big better. I'll signal him over when the count gets good enough, and signal him back out if the count goes bad. I hope to have him betting 5-10 units. Here come the questions...

What is the best count to use for this type of play? I don't want anything too tough. Level 1 or 2 only. Either balanced or unbalanced.

At what count should I signal him over using this count?

How many units should my partner be betting? I was thinking 5-10 (trying to keep him away from anything more than a 2 to 1 spread), but should we go bigger if our bankroll can support it?

Would it be better if I never even sat down? What if I just backcounted until the count got good, walked away and signaled him over? Is this a bad idea?

Any other general advice or info you think I should have regarding this situation, please let me know.

 

[shadroch]

If you walked away,how would he know when the count has gone south?

 

[godeem23]

I'd either have him play through the shoe, just play like 5 hands or so placing big bets, or have him count.

 

[EasyRhino]

I'll be the small better, betting flat 1 unit per hand...

Okay...

I hope to have him betting 5-10 units.

No.

I don't do team play, but a 1-10 spread in a shoe game is marginal in a solo Make it a call-in game, and you've got the added inefficiency and lag of logistics and signal passing to make it worse. The only reason I could conceivably see to do it is if your unit was measured in black chips, and you really really needed the cover.

Try for a spread way bigger than you can get in solo play.

 

[moo321]

Read "Blackjack Attack". It will answer all of your questions about back-counting.

 

[Guynoire]

If your bankroll is small or your team is not highly organized I would suggest both of you just wong it and pool your winnings. Here’s my rational; information and opportunities can only be lost by using signals, they can’t be improved upon from what the spotter sees himself. The only advantage to spotter-big player teams have compared to two people wonging it is to decrease heat and allow the team to make very high, near table max, bets without getting thrown out. If you don’t have a very large bankroll, less than approximately $100,000 and aren’t going to be betting table max on most hands, this is unnecessary.

Also as a note, even if you did have $100,000 dollars to invest I wouldn’t put it into a team. Unless you’re a professional card counter, which we know you’re not because you are asking for advice on a public forum you probably don’t have the skills or experience yet to manage a successful team. Trust me there are too many liabilities the least of which is the luck of the cards. The fact that you are trusting your money in the skills and honesty of other people is a huge concern and the investment is just too risky to put in $100,000 when there are other traditional forms of investment easily available.

 

[godeem23]

Thank you for all of the responses so far.

To the poster who said that the big better's big bet should be more than ten times the small better's flat bet, how much greater should the spread be?

Also, to someone who mentioned that it might not be a good idea because of information lost in signals, I was thinking I would only signal him to come and go. Or maybe just a "double your bet" signal. Should I be signaling something more?

Thank you for the suggestion on the book, I'm looking that up right now!

And to answer someone's question...no, we do not have a large bankroll. Probably in the range of 2000 dollars.

 

[Kasi]

Would it be better if I never even sat down?

Probably best if neither of you ever sat down.

Maybe in a year when you can answer your own questions.

Surely you know this in your heart of hearts?

 

[godeem23]

Well, I need to get advice from somewhere.

And that book Blackjack Attack got bad reviews.

 

[Guynoire]

information/signals

The come and go signals will be the staple of your team but there could be other signals to communicate the count for purposes of increased bets and index plays. Since you would only play in positive counts your big player should know a modified basic strategy, stand on hard 16's etc, but there is still some grey area. For example the decision to whether to double a 9v7 is ambiguous it requires a high true count but not so high as it's mathematically unreachable and not so low as to always assume to double. So you could have another signal to deviate from basic strategy.

The loss of information/oppurtunity will most likely come from the fact that the big player has to physically move across the casino as opposed to the wonger that just plops down a bet. The big player will often miss a potential profitable round because of this and the count will probably change too.

 

[godeem23]

Okay, I'm with you so far. But there's something I don't understand. Isn't this how the MIT kids did it back in the day? What type of team play did they use that was different from the kind I'm suggesting?

 

[EasyRhino]

Probably in the range of 2000 dollars.

Naw, forget about it. Big Player techniques would pay off for bets of several hundred dollars to a couple grand. Or in other words, your entire bankroll in one hand.

Best bet is probably Every Man For Himself. Both play as if you had a $2000 bankroll, backcount different tables, and avoid as many negative hands as possible. With two players you play twice as fast, and get risk diversified across multiple tables.

Even then it's risky. I'd recommend hustling some online casino bonuses first to build up more bankroll faster with less risk

And read Blackjack Bluebook, Blackjack Blueprint, Blackjack Attack, Blackbelt in Blackjack (or maybe the Big Book of Blackjack).

 

[Guynoire]

Well, I need to get advice from somewhere.

And that book Blackjack Attack got bad reviews.

Blackjack Attack is the single most detailed and comprehensive book on card counting out there. Basically almost any mathematical question you could ever think of is answered in this book. However, the book itself is written like a math textbook, I think Schlesinger is an actual math professor, and it is a difficult read and math intensive. I wouldn't reccomend the book to anyone interested in card counting as their first book to read or probably even their second because it is too complicated and assumes some prior knowledge, but it is important that before you invest money in yourself you know the math of the game. As Schlesinger put it you wouldn't go into a game without knowing the score and you shouldn't play blackjack without knowing the relevant math: expected value, standard deviation, risk of ruin,etc. This book covers all that for basically any permutation of the game and style of play you could think of.

An alternative would be to get some good simulation software and run a simulation of the game you want to play, that is basically all Schlesinger did anyway, but the book is cheaper.

This is probably not what you want to hear as you probably are eager to hit the casinos as soon as possible but most counters fail at least initially because they don't really understand the math of the game and either overbet or play a lousy or unbeatable game. It could save you a lot of time and money if you research the game thoroughly and I recommend this book.

 

[BJinNJ]

I have to disagree...

Much as you can play baseball without understanding the physics
of the curve ball or the bat swing, I believe one can play advantage
BJ without understanding the mathematical basis for every play.

But, you MUST trust the information presented by authors that DO
understand the math. Some authors are better than others.

IMHO, save up a bigger bankroll. Meanwhile, read Thorp, Revere,
Wong, Snyder, Schlesinger, Renzey, Uston, Carlson, and Blaine.
These guys will impress upon you the dedication, discipline and
fundamentals you need to have a CHANCE to make it. Read and
practice should be your mantra. You'll know when you're truly
ready to put your hard-earned money at risk. Currently I'm buying
stocks for a bounce, to increase my BR!

For practice, game analysis, and other pertinent info, you'll need
some software. Some people get by with readily available
spreadsheet software, into which they enter the appropriate
formulas, for some of this same info.

I know Uston, Blaine and Snyder deal with team play. I'm reading
Schlesinger now, so I don't know all that he offers, yet.
Try half.com for good deals on BJ books.

Personally I've been reading for almost a year, studying for a few
months and growing my BR. I thought I'd be ready this winter,
but now it appears the spring or even summer might be better.
The casinos will still be there, when I know BS cold, can count
down a deck in <30 secs, know the I18 and Fab 4 variations cold,
and know my Kelly bet ramp. Then I'll be ready. Not before.

Having written all of this, stories about players that took $500 and
turned it into tens of thousands are true. But they took it very
slowly at the start, and followed 'the book' at the start. It seems
that early success at counting increases your chances of lasting
success, probably because your BR gets big enough to handle the
inevitable negative variances.

Bon Chance in your BJ endeavor.

BJinNJ

 

[SystemsTrader]

Godeem23 your head will probably be spinning by the time you try to comprehend all the different advice you will receive in this thread so I will add to the confusion. First off learn to crawl before you learn to run. There is only one situation where you should ever start out your blackjack career with team play and that is if you are being trained by an already competent team.

So start playing solo. Step one is to learn basic strategy to perfection, once you have achieved this then learn a simple level one count. There is some excellent book suggestions already made to you, Blackjack Attack is excellent by the way but it is for advanced play so don't get that book first. Now you can learn to count, but start out with a level one count either Hi-Lo or if you don't feel comfortable with deck estimation you can use an unbalanced count like KO or Red 7. Unfortunately with your tiny 2k bankroll you will not be able to do play-all against shoes so just backcount. Ideally I suggest you save at least 10k if you want to play against shoes, but if you go with your 2k expect to have high risk of losing it all. The variance with this game is brutal and if you are going into it for recreational purposes against 8 deck games with 75% pen you can jump into a $15 table at +3 and play a 1-2 spread and can expect to make between $2 and $3 an hour. So if your plan is to make a lot of money then either save up a larger bankroll or get a job at McDonalds. I'm not trying to be a jerk, I'm just showing you the reality of this game. It's probably one of the toughest ways to make a buck.

 

[godeem23]

Thank you for all of the advice and suggestions on books and authurs so far.

The general consensus on this board seems to be that I'm either not skilled enough or my bankroll isn't large enough to begin play. Well, I'm not completely lacking of skill. I've read some Thorp and Renzey and in my opinion Blackjack Bluebook 2 is a great source of information. I know BS cold and I've experimented with about 3 different counts. Of course I know I'm not ready to step into a casino, but I was trying to get some advice on getting ready.

To someone who commented on math ability. Math has always been my best subject through high school and college. I don't think this type of math will be a problem for me.

About the bankroll. I was not aware that 2000 would be too small. Does anyone have any suggestions on how I can invest this money into BJ with a small advantage? Even it it means only 2 or 3 dollars and hour.

Okay let's say I just went for some solo backcounting in a 6 deck shoe. DAS, S17, dealer peaks, yada yada. What count do you suggest? What spread do you suggest? And at what point should I grab a seat?

Thanks again for all the replies!

 

[SystemsTrader]

The general consensus on this board seems to be that I'm either not skilled enough or my bankroll isn't large enough to begin play. Well, I'm not completely lacking of skill. I've read some Thorp and Renzey and in my opinion Blackjack Bluebook 2 is a great source of information. I know BS cold and I've experimented with about 3 different counts. Of course I know I'm not ready to step into a casino, but I was trying to get some advice on getting ready.

About the bankroll. I was not aware that 2000 would be too small. Does anyone have any suggestions on how I can invest this money into BJ with a small advantage? Even it it means only 2 or 3 dollars and hour, I'm willing to give it a try because I have nothing else to do with the money. It's just sitting in my room.

Okay let's say I just went for some solo backcounting in a 6 deck shoe. DAS, S17, dealer peaks, yada yada. What count do you suggest? What spread do you suggest? And at what point should I grab a seat?

Sorry I was under the impression you had no experience. Here's how to backcount those 6 deckers. Using Hi-Lo.

On a $25 min table jump in at +3 or above and only bet $25.
On a $15 min table Jump in at +2 and bet $15, if the count goes to +4 bet $25 and if it hits +6 bet $50.

In the mean time keep saving for a bigger bankroll.

 

[Sonny]

Well, I'm not completely lacking of skill…I know BS cold and I've experimented with about 3 different counts. Of course I know I'm not ready to step into a casino, but I was trying to get some advice on getting ready.

Skill is certainly an important factor, but knowledge can sometimes be even more important. For example, even if you play perfectly and never make a single mistake, if you are betting more than double your advantage then you are guaranteed to go broke even though you have an advantage. Many skillful card counters have gone bust because they didn’t understand things like bankroll management and risk of ruin. You need to have both skill and knowledge if you expect to succeed at gambling.

About the bankroll. I was not aware that 2000 would be too small. Does anyone have any suggestions on how I can invest this money into BJ with a small advantage?

You will have to play a very conservative game, unless that money is replenishable. That means a lot of backcounting, scavenger play, couponomy and whatever else you can get away with. Here is an old discussion about playing with a small bankroll.

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=5655

Okay let's say I just went for some solo backcounting in a 6 deck shoe. DAS, S17, dealer peaks, yada yada. What count do you suggest?

Systems like HiLo, KO and KISS are very simple and very powerful. They are good places to start.

What spread do you suggest?

A general rule of thumb is to have a max bet that is 1% of your total bankroll. With a $2,000 BR you would be making $20 max bets. Spreading $5-$20 isn’t going to give you an advantage in most games so you will have to avoid as many negative counts as possible. As SystemsTrader said, backcount the tables until you find a positive count. Don’t play unless you have an advantage. That will only be about 20 hands per hour, but it is the safest way to play. Play 2 hands whenever you can.

If you can only play positive counts then you can use a bigger max bet, but either way you should expect to make about $2-$5 per hour.

And at what point should I grab a seat?

Probably around +2. If you are using a small spread then you might wait until +3.

…I have nothing else to do with the money. It's just sitting in my room.

If you aren’t expecting much profit anyway, maybe you should think about investing it. A good money market account or certificate of deposit account will earn a small profit without any risk at all.

-Sonny-

 

[jack.jackson]

Skill is certainly an important factor, but knowledge can sometimes be even more important. For example, even if you play perfectly and never make a single mistake, if you are betting more than double your advantage then you are guaranteed to go broke even though you have an advantage. Many skillful card counters have gone bust because they didn’t understand things like bankroll management and risk of ruin. You need to have both skill and knowledge if you expect to succeed at gambling.

But lets say(for example) you had infinite Bankroll. Could you still make a 1000$ bet @ +2 and a 500$ at +4 and still have and edge? I know you'll win at a slower rate, opposed to Fixed Fraction betting; but, you would still have an edge. Correct?

 

[Sonny]

But lets say(for example) you had infinite Bankroll.

Then why would I gamble? I'd be on a private island with my 20 girlfriends. :grin:

Could you still make a 1000$ bet @ +2 and a 500$ at +4 and still have and edge?

That depends on how much you bet in negative situations. As long as you are betting high enough when you have an overall advantage then you will have an edge. Since we presumably aren't concerned with variance or N0 we can bet however we want as long as we average big bets in +TC and low bets in -TC.

-Sonny-