banned, barred or you can't play bj

[sagefr0g]

There are several threads on the Donovan case in Indiana in this website. The news paper articles in this high profile case are no longer available.

As I read it this is not so much about private property owners right but the judges were ruling with what is in the Casino Control Act in Indiana.

As you know the AC Casino Act makes it illegal to disbar a gambler for CC. The Nevada Act is silent on this. So the casinos have to revert to using the property owners right to disbar CC.

In the case of Indiana the Supreme court rule CC is illegal in Indiana although the Casino Act there is also silent on CC. This new " interpretation' of the casino law have wide implication for all the other states enacting casino laws.
So there are now 3 versions of the casino laws in the states.

1 -In AC CC is not illegal
2- In Nevada where the law is silent on CC and hence the property has to use his property right to disbar CC
3- In Indiana where the Supreme Court ruled that in the casino act CC is illegal.

Here is a thread you may want to look at

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=19609

errh Mr. T, i sure hope you are inaccurate on your wording with respect to the stuff in your quote that i bolded.
errh i mean, you are not meaning to say that you consider it is the state of Indiana's option to treat card counting as an illegal act that could exact monetary penalties and or incarceration are you?

 

[Automatic Monkey]

errh Mr. T, i sure hope you are inaccurate on your wording with respect to the stuff in your quote that i bolded.
errh i mean, you are not meaning to say that you consider it is the state of Indiana's option to treat card counting as an illegal act that could exact monetary penalties and or incarceration are you?

New Jersey's court ruling barring barrings only states that the State of New Jersey makes the rules as to who can play blackjack in a casino and the casino cannot override that by including or excluding people beyond state law or CCC regulations. NJ maintains an excluded list and the people on that list cannot be allowed to play even if the casino wants them to. People can be banned or arrested for illegal behavior in a casino but to ban CC would require a statute defining it as a crime and to my knowledge no state has written such a law.

 

[aslan]

There are several threads on the Donovan case in Indiana in this website. The news paper articles in this high profile case are no longer available.

As I read it this is not so much about private property owners right but the judges were ruling with what is in the Casino Control Act in Indiana.

As you know the AC Casino Act makes it illegal to disbar a gambler for CC. The Nevada Act is silent on this. So the casinos have to revert to using the property owners right to disbar CC.

In the case of Indiana the Supreme court rule CC is illegal in Indiana although the Casino Act there is also silent on CC. This new " interpretation' of the casino law have wide implication for all the other states enacting casino laws.
So there are now 3 versions of the casino laws in the states.

1 -In AC CC is not illegal
2- In Nevada where the law is silent on CC and hence the property has to use his property right to disbar CC
3- In Indiana where the Supreme Court ruled that in the casino act CC is illegal.

Here is a thread you may want to look at

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=19609

While these cases create precedents, no other state is bound by the rulings. I believe the common law recognizes the right to refuse service, but leaves it up to the courts to rule on specific cases, and does recognize the counter rights of customers against arbitrary and unreasonable barrings by places who set themselves forth as offering goods and/or services to the general public. Of course, it's all in the courts' discretion.

 

[Mr. T]

errh Mr. T, i sure hope you are inaccurate on your wording with respect to the stuff in your quote that i bolded.
errh i mean, you are not meaning to say that you consider it is the state of Indiana's option to treat card counting as an illegal act that could exact monetary penalties and or incarceration are you?

What I wrote is correct, unless somebody else can show otherwise.

CC is illegal in Indiana. As a criminal offence the counter could be fined or jailed.

 

[Mr. T]

New Jersey's court ruling barring barrings only states that the State of New Jersey makes the rules as to who can play blackjack in a casino and the casino cannot override that by including or excluding people beyond state law or CCC regulations. NJ maintains an excluded list and the people on that list cannot be allowed to play even if the casino wants them to. People can be banned or arrested for illegal behavior in a casino but to ban CC would require a statute defining it as a crime and to my knowledge no state has written such a law.

In AC it is an offence in law for the casino to bar players who engages in CC.

 

[Mr. T]

While these cases create precedents, no other state is bound by the rulings. I believe the common law recognizes the right to refuse service, but leaves it up to the courts to rule on specific cases, and does recognize the counter rights of customers against arbitrary and unreasonable barrings by places who set themselves forth as offering goods and/or services to the general public. Of course, it's all in the courts' discretion.

My friend, Aslan seems to be hung up on the court's discretion on arbitary and unreasonable barring.

In AC and Indiana the law has ruled on barring already, although in exactly opposite way.

In Nevada common law property rights prevail. But you youself have said earlier something like the casino commision unsually side with the casino. So would you want to argue the casinos are arbitary and unreasonable in their barring there.

Other states that have enacted casino laws there is need to be challenged in court to determine how the court would interpret the law.

But court challenge is to interpret the law. Nothing to do with any arguements whether any particular barring is arbitary or reasonable. The 3 scenarios in the different states would over-ride this arguement.

 

[sagefr0g]

What I wrote is correct, unless somebody else can show otherwise.

CC is illegal in Indiana. As a criminal offence the counter could be fined or jailed.

errrhh, Mr. T, i think you mean fined or jailed for trespassing after having been trespassed for card counting or for that matter after having been trespassed for any reason what so ever that does not break civil right law.
but not fined or jailed for the explicit act of counting cards, no?
in other words, trespassing is illegal, but card counting is not even though a casino can trespass a person for card counting. right?

 

[aslan]

What I wrote is correct, unless somebody else can show otherwise.

CC is illegal in Indiana. As a criminal offence the counter could be fined or jailed.

What is the proof that someone is counting? Can you be convicted on circumstantial evidence, such as your largest bets happened to coincide with a percentage advantage? Is the court willing to rule that luck is impossible, or that hunches/intuition are always false? What about the subconscious mind's ability to determine an advantage resulting in the player getting a "hunch" that he should raise his bet? Seems far fetched to me that the abstract idea of illegal counting could ever be translated into a practical way to prove in a court of law that counting ever took place, only that increased timely wagers took place. Aslan, being contrarian

 

[Mr. T]

errrhh, Mr. T, i think you mean fined or jailed for trespassing after having been trespassed for card counting or for that matter after having been trespassed for any reason what so ever that does not break civil right law.
but not fined or jailed for the explicit act of counting cards, no?
in other words, trespassing is illegal, but card counting is not even though a casino can trespass a person for card counting. right?

Yes I need to take a step back from what I said.

It depends on what the wording is in the court ruling. If the ruling is blar, blar, blar......the casino has the right to bar the CC. Then just like you said the casino can bar the CC but would need to cite the trespass law. And criminal prosecution would be under the trespass law by the police.

However if the wording is CC is illegal under the casino control act then criminal proscution would be handed by the casino commission. It is unlikely to be this scenario as it is awefully difficult to prove the player is engage in CC to the court.

 

[Mr. T]

What is the proof that someone is counting? Can you be convicted on circumstantial evidence, such as your largest bets happened to coincide with a percentage advantage? Is the court willing to rule that luck is impossible, or that hunches/intuition are always false? What about the subconscious mind's ability to determine an advantage resulting in the player getting a "hunch" that he should raise his bet? Seems far fetched to me that the abstract idea of illegal counting could ever be translated into a practical way to prove in a court of law that counting ever took place, only that increased timely wagers took place. Aslan, being contrarian

Aslan you beat me to the punch as the saying goes.

Yes from my above reply to Sage it is almost impossible to prove in a crinimal case " beyond any reasonable doubt" the player in engage in CC.

The proof required would be something like a finger print match. So the casino would need to produce evidence like the player has engaged in 2 or 12 sessions of perfect CC play. Even then would the jury be satisfied with this evidence. I don't think it is this scenario.

 

[aslan]

Yes I need to take a step back from what I said.

It depends on what the wording is in the court ruling. If the ruling is blar, blar, blar......the casino has the right to bar the CC. Then just like you said the casino can bar the CC but would need to cite the trespass law. And criminal prosecution would be under the trespass law by the police.

However if the wording is CC is illegal under the casino control act then criminal proscution would be handed by the casino commission. It is unlikely to be this scenario as it is awefully difficult to prove the player is engage in CC to the court.

Would that a shape shifting Anuki reptilian whispered in my ear when to raise my bet be a good defense?

 

[aslan]

Aslan you beat me to the punch as the saying goes.

Yes from my above reply to Sage it is almost impossible to prove in a crinimal case " beyond any reasonable doubt" the player in engage in CC.

The proof required would be something like a finger print match. So the casino would need to produce evidence like the player has engaged in 2 or 12 sessions of perfect CC play. Even then would the jury be satisfied with this evidence. I don't think it is this scenario.

It would be a hard sell to the uninitiated jury members, especially when the counter used various covers to mask his play. The defense could point to each cover and say, "Look there! He is raising his bet in a negative count [cover bet in close to neutral count], or look there, he did not raise his bet until it reached +6 [oppositional betting], passing up several earlier opportunities. My client is a victim of good luck and circumstances!"

 

[sagefr0g]

Would that a shape shifting Anuki reptilian whispered in my ear when to raise my bet be a good defense?

that would definitely provide proof positive your innocence of performing anything even close to the egregious crime in question.