Basic Strategy Deviation Question

Numberman

Member
Hey, im learning to count using a HI/LO system, i was just wondering if i could eliminate the casino edge by just using basic strategy deviation based on the count, and not using a bet spread.

I know the whole point of counting is to increase/decrease your bets, but im curious as to what effect BS deviation by itself has on the calculated edge.

also what websites have information on BS deviation?
 
Numberman

I have experimented doing exactly as you questioned, using many indices, in a very good game and I have beaten the house, Flat betting. When doing so I have flat bet rather large. I have actually done this on several occasions, always beating the house. Amazing.

But the "Big Picture" answer is to use many indices and bet with the count.

AP play is very complex, much more than you can imagine, nothing related to it is *simple*.

CP
 

BJinNJ

Well-Known Member
I think there is something on this in...

BJA3. (Chpt. 9 on SCORE)

Basically, if the conditions are good enough, including back-counting, it can be done.

BJinNJ :cool:
 
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Numberman

Member
thanks

im not looking for an advantage, im just looking for a way to kill the dealer edge

does anyone know any good websites for indices? im having trouble finding stuff on this
 

callipygian

Well-Known Member
creeping panther said:
I have experimented doing exactly as you questioned, using many indices, in a very good game and I have beaten the house, Flat betting.
I seriously question this.

Basic strategy deviations, when flat betting, barely increase your edge. That's because the switches that you make at the most common counts (-2, -1, 0, 1, 2) aren't very valuable, and the switches you make at the most valuable counts (-3 or below, +3 or above) aren't very common.

Here are the values for making perfect basic strategy changes from TC -5 to TC +5 - that is, the difference in EV between perfect strategy and basic strategy. But when you multiply each of the changes by the likelihood of the TC, the value decreases rapidly.

Code:
TC	Change	Value
-5	0.304%	0.003%
-4	0.184%	0.004%
-3	0.103%	0.004%
-2	0.045%	0.004%
-1	0.013%	0.002%
0	0	0
1	0.002%	0
2	0.018%	0.002%
3	0.054%	0.002%
4	0.165%	0.003%
5	0.339%	0.003%
Overall, by making perfect strategy adjustments, you will gain about 0.03% on the house. More accurately, though, it's not that you will GAIN 0.03%, but that you WON'T LOSE 0.03%. That is, by always playing basic strategy, you actually play with an additional -0.03% EV against the house.

For example, if your game has a book-calculated EV of -0.57%, and you play basic strategy, your actual EV is -0.60% - because the book calculated the EV assuming the count is always 0. If you make strategy changes, then that's the only way you get the -0.57% that's actually calculated.

I really doubt anyone can beat the house with just strategy changes.

If you're backcounting and making strategy changes, that's different. The majority of your edge is coming from backcounting; only a minor portion is coming from strategy changes.
 

callipygian

Well-Known Member
Numberman said:
im not looking for an advantage, im just looking for a way to kill the dealer edge
Leaving whenever the table drops below a true count of -1 is worth about +0.3%, which will about halve the house edge on most games.

Only joining a table at a true count of +1 and leaving whenever it drops below -1 is worth about +0.5%, good enough to kill any edge for all practical purposes.

Joining a table at a true count of +1 and leaving whenever it drops below +1 is worth about +1%, giving you a small edge even at the worst games (except 6:5 blackjack).

And all without varying your bet by a single cent.
 

bj bob

Well-Known Member
completely agree if...

...you're talking about a shoe game, however the HA on on good DD game can be significantly reduced with indeces+ flat bet and actually overcome on a good quality, deeply dealt SD game.
 

callipygian

Well-Known Member
bj bob said:
...you're talking about a shoe game, however the HA on on good DD game can be significantly reduced with indeces+ flat bet and actually overcome on a good quality, deeply dealt SD game.
Yes, this is for shoe games only.

Single- and double-deck games are definitely different. If I'm not mistaken, there's a fair amount to be gained from simple composition-dependent basic strategy for single-deck games (e.g. player 10-2 is treated differently from player 7-5).

I have never examined or played those strategies. Sorry; I assumed the OP was talking about shoe games.
 

sagefr0g

Well-Known Member
callipygian said:
....
Overall, by making perfect strategy adjustments, you will gain about 0.03% on the house. More accurately, though, it's not that you will GAIN 0.03%, but that you WON'T LOSE 0.03%. That is, by always playing basic strategy, you actually play with an additional -0.03% EV against the house.

For example, if your game has a book-calculated EV of -0.57%, and you play basic strategy, your actual EV is -0.60% - because the book calculated the EV assuming the count is always 0. If you make strategy changes, then that's the only way you get the -0.57% that's actually calculated.

...
couple of questions here callipygian.
you got me wondering like say about the basic strategy engine here on this site. i hear what your saying about a book-calculated EV. so but does that mean that a book-calculated EV has taken into consideration play with all known matrices as opposed to just playing plain ole vanilla basic strategy?
i mean i would have thought that say just playing through a pack using only basic strategy in the long run that the effect of negative tc's and positive tc's would virtually cancell out over time. :confused:
so anyway would such as your saying apply to the EV generated for a given game on this site as well?
 
calli-correct

callipygian said:
Yes, this is for shoe games only.

Single- and double-deck games are definitely different. If I'm not mistaken, there's a fair amount to be gained from simple composition-dependent basic strategy for single-deck games (e.g. player 10-2 is treated differently from player 7-5).

I have never examined or played those strategies. Sorry; I assumed the OP was talking about shoe games.
I was referring to a very good DD, which is my specialty.;)

CP
 

Numberman

Member
wow, thanks a lot

callipygian said:
Leaving whenever the table drops below a true count of -1 is worth about +0.3%, which will about halve the house edge on most games.

Only joining a table at a true count of +1 and leaving whenever it drops below -1 is worth about +0.5%, good enough to kill any edge for all practical purposes.

Joining a table at a true count of +1 and leaving whenever it drops below +1 is worth about +1%, giving you a small edge even at the worst games (except 6:5 blackjack).

And all without varying your bet by a single cent.
your two posts were incredibly helpful, thats what i was interested in with the EV numbers

im very surprised at how little the BS deviations help, if what you said is true then its not even worth it for me to memorize them

and the post on the backcounting was exactly what i was looking for

outside of backcounting, if anyone knows any other ways to shave down the edge while flat betting that would be great!

fyi, i only play in AC, so im referring to shoe games
 

Sonny

Well-Known Member
Numberman said:
outside of backcounting, if anyone knows any other ways to shave down the edge while flat betting that would be great!
Check out the question in the FAQ thread about playing with a small bankroll. It has lots of tips on how to squeeze out every possible advantage you can get. Simple things like couponomy, scavenger plays and backline bets can give you a small advantage if done properly. The FAQ thread also covers the most important index plays.

Just keep in mind that the majority of your advantage comes from spreading your bets properly. Without that, you aren't going to get far. Even a small bet spread can overcome the house edge without looking too suspicious.

-Sonny-
 
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callipygian

Well-Known Member
sagefr0g said:
i would have thought that say just playing through a pack using only basic strategy in the long run that the effect of negative tc's and positive tc's would virtually cancell out over time. :confused:
The quickest and most accurate answer is that I don't know what this site uses. However, I suspect that it is highly unlikely to program an 8-deck shoe, track the count, and make all the correct strategy adjustments when calculating the house edge. It is more likely that a program will generate 1,000,000 8-deck shoes and just deal out the cards with basic strategy.

The reason why the errors don't cancel is because, without basic strategy changes, BOTH negative-count AND positive-count play deviates from the ideal. You lose money by making "incorrect" plays at low counts, and then lose more money by making other "incorrect" plays at high counts.

If any of the site sims actually take into account changing basic strategy, I'll eat my words. But given the complexity of doing either calculating house edge or indices for strategy changes, I find it hard to believe that most people would take the time to do both at the same time.
 

sagefr0g

Well-Known Member
callipygian said:
The quickest and most accurate answer is that I don't know what this site uses. However, I suspect that it is highly unlikely to program an 8-deck shoe, track the count, and make all the correct strategy adjustments when calculating the house edge. It is more likely that a program will generate 1,000,000 8-deck shoes and just deal out the cards with basic strategy.

The reason why the errors don't cancel is because, without basic strategy changes, BOTH negative-count AND positive-count play deviates from the ideal. You lose money by making "incorrect" plays at low counts, and then lose more money by making other "incorrect" plays at high counts.

If any of the site sims actually take into account changing basic strategy, I'll eat my words. But given the complexity of doing either calculating house edge or indices for strategy changes, I find it hard to believe that most people would take the time to do both at the same time.
yep thank you callipygian for the explaination. i guess i could of deduced that from the table in your post and from QFIT's graph
http://www.blackjackincolor.com/truecount3.htm
just some more not so good news one just needs to realize about things. lol but i guess it's best to know the how it really is stuff. :cat:
 

Canceler

Well-Known Member
callipygian said:
It is more likely that a program will generate 1,000,000 8-deck shoes and just deal out the cards with basic strategy.
I think it's more likely that combinatorial analysis will be used.
 

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sagefr0g

Well-Known Member
Canceler said:
I think it's more likely that combinatorial analysis will be used.
great idea Canceler. man k_c's blackjack game and computer probability program is perfect for answering my guestions!
had the answer right in front of me lol.
 
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