basic strategy engine

[sagefr0g]

the other day i ran into a situation where someone was trying to use this basic strategy generated by the basic strategy engine:
http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bjbse.php?numdecks=6+decks&soft17=h17&dbl=all&das=yes&surr=ls&peek=yes

thing about it was the person wasn't able to use the chart for instance where their hand was more than a two card total of 16vs9, 16vsAce, 15vs10 and 15vsAce.
well, of course it would be Hit in those instances, but this person didn't know that, nor could they determine that from the chart.
i guess this could be fixed by instead of R in those fields to make them RH. (meaning hit if you can't surrender)

 

[muppet]

there is an option to select "No Surrender" as one of the rules

 

[sagefr0g]

there is an option to select "No Surrender" as one of the rules

right there is, but the game did in fact allow late surrender, but only on the first two cards. so you would want the surrender information as well as the hitting information.

 

[muppet]

oh, good point.

well, at least RS is on there for surrender/stand

 

[Kasi]

right there is, but the game did in fact allow late surrender, but only on the first two cards. so you would want the surrender information as well as the hitting information.

The BS means, when LS is allowed, one would surrender on any 2-card 16 vs 10.

If one does not surrender it implies one therefore, obviously, has a 3-or-more-card 16 vs 10 because one would have already surrendered the 2-card 16 vs 10.

Therefore, because correct BS would be to to stand on any 3-or-more-card 16 vs 10, it says, at least I hope it does, something like "RS" meaning surrender if it's a 2-card 16 but stand if it's a 3-card-or-more 16 vs 10.

In other words, in a game that allows LS, one will never be able to hit a 2-card 16 vs 10 because one will have already surrendered it.

Make sense?

 

[Kasi]

the other day i ran into a situation where someone was trying to use this basic strategy generated by the basic strategy engine:
http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bjbse.php?numdecks=6+decks&soft17=h17&dbl=all&das=yes&surr=ls&peek=yes

thing about it was the person wasn't able to use the chart for instance where their hand was more than a two card total of 16vs9, 16vsAce, 15vs10 and 15vsAce.
well, of course it would be Hit in those instances, but this person didn't know that, nor could they determine that from the chart.
i guess this could be fixed by instead of R in those fields to make them RH. (meaning hit if you can't surrender)

OK maybe I see your point better now.

"RH" would be better for the "15 vs 10 or Ace and 16 vs 9 or Ace" challenged. I guess the assumption is, as stupid as you are to not surrender, you are still smart enough to hit, not stand, on those hands.

PS Only surrender an 8,7 vs Ace. Not 8,7 vs 10. Surrender the 9,6 and t,5 vs 10 and Ace.

I only know this because of the virtual BJ machine in Pennsylvania that allows LS.

I love the crap I get from people splitting face cards when I surrender 17 vs Ace and they somehow think what I did effects what they do while they are being dealt from a separate shoe that I am being dealt from lol.

 

[sagefr0g]

The BS means, when LS is allowed, one would surrender on any 2-card 16 vs 10.

If one does not surrender it implies one therefore, obviously, has a 3-or-more-card 16 vs 10 because one would have already surrendered the 2-card 16 vs 10.

Therefore, because correct BS would be to to stand on any 3-or-more-card 16 vs 10, it says, at least I hope it does, something like "RS" meaning surrender if it's a 2-card 16 but stand if it's a 3-card-or-more 16 vs 10.

In other words, in a game that allows LS, one will never be able to hit a 2-card 16 vs 10 because one will have already surrendered it.

Make sense?

erhhh, check the post again:
http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showpost.php?p=175695&postcount=1
talkin about for instance where their hand was more than a two card total of 16vs9, 16vsAce, 15vs10 and 15vsAce.
there is a link in the link above for the game in question.
it just says R in those cases, not RS or RH, sort of thing.
shouldn't it say RH?

 

[sagefr0g]

.....

PS Only surrender an 8,7 vs Ace. Not 8,7 vs 10. Surrender the 9,6 and t,5 vs 10 and Ace.

erhh ok, what is that? i guess the composition dependent bs stuff?

I only know this because of the virtual BJ machine in Pennsylvania that allows LS.
..

yeah, that is weird, makes me wonder what the heck the one i'm messing with does. i won't say where it's at but i think you probably could guess.
errhh i'll pm you.

 

[Kasi]

erhhh, check the post again:
http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showpost.php?p=175695&postcount=1
talkin about for instance where their hand was more than a two card total of 16vs9, 16vsAce, 15vs10 and 15vsAce.
there is a link in the link above for the game in question.
it just says R in those cases, not RS or RH, sort of thing.
shouldn't it say RH?

Well, I think I agreed with you it could say "RH", if it wanted to, for 16 vs 9 or Ace, or 15 vs 10 or Ace.

In that any 3-or-more card 16 vs 9 or Ace, or 15 vs 10 or Ace is a Hit if LS is not allowed,

So I have no problem re-labelimg those hands "RH" as opposed to "R" if one (ken) chooses to. I think it (RH) is probably assumed since it is so obvious.

Since one will always hit all those hands if one cannot surrender them - they will always be 3-or-more card totals after one assumes they cannot properly already have been surendered in the first place.

 

[KenSmith]

I made that change. R is now RH.
I tried out a similar change of "DS" instead of "D" for doubling.
In that case, with so many doubles on the chart, I found it less clear because the DH and DS didn't appear different enough to catch the eye.

While the same argument applies for Double - hit if not allowed, I think I'm better off leaving it alone.

 

[sagefr0g]

I made that change. R is now RH.
I tried out a similar change of "DS" instead of "D" for doubling.
In that case, with so many doubles on the chart, I found it less clear because the DH and DS didn't appear different enough to catch the eye.

While the same argument applies for Double - hit if not allowed, I think I'm better off leaving it alone.

ok, thank you Ken.
and i see what you mean for the doubles, but at least the key below says for D (hit if not allowed) , sort of thing.

 

[chessplayer]

Surprisingly, I found a chart with just one different value from the one at blackjackinfo.

For the rules of :4 decks, S17, D9, DAS, Early Surrender, No Peek,

http://www.google.co.th/imgres?imgurl=http://www.online-casinos.com/images/blackjack-chart.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.online-casinos.com/blackjack/blackjack_chart.asp&h=700&w=550&sz=54&tbnid=4u-eGjphLWRq8M:&tbnh=140&tbnw=110&prev=/images?q=blackjack+strategy+chart&hl=en&usg=__wbtI3ZexyS8k3T-CTdrJp7g3Fms=&ei=t9iMS6OCCci7rAfJpZyVAg&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=7&ct=image&ved=0CBcQ9QEwBg

Has RH for 16 vs 10, while Blackjack info is RS.

I made that change. R is now RH.
I tried out a similar change of "DS" instead of "D" for doubling.
In that case, with so many doubles on the chart, I found it less clear because the DH and DS didn't appear different enough to catch the eye.

While the same argument applies for Double - hit if not allowed, I think I'm better off leaving it alone.

 

[Canceler]

Surprisingly, I found a chart with just one different value from the one at blackjackinfo.

For the rules of :4 decks, S17, D9, DAS, Early Surrender, No Peek,

http://www.google.co.th/imgres?imgurl=http://www.online-casinos.com/images/blackjack-chart.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.online-casinos.com/blackjack/blackjack_chart.asp&h=700&w=550&sz=54&tbnid=4u-eGjphLWRq8M:&tbnh=140&tbnw=110&prev=/images?q=blackjack+strategy+chart&hl=en&usg=__wbtI3ZexyS8k3T-CTdrJp7g3Fms=&ei=t9iMS6OCCci7rAfJpZyVAg&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=7&ct=image&ved=0CBcQ9QEwBg

Has RH for 16 vs 10, while Blackjack info is RS.

It has to do with whether surrender is available at all.

On the basic strategy engine here, if you choose something other than No Surrender, you are saying that surrender is available as an option. If it’s available, but you can’t surrender, it’s because you have a 16 composed of 3 (or more) cards, and should stand.

The other chart is more generic. With that one they’re saying that if surrender is available, you should surrender, and if surrender is not offered as an option at all, you should hit.

Both are correct; the BS engine here just takes things a little deeper.

 

[Mr. T]

Ken just curious. Could you explain your Avatar or picture beside your name. You have what looks like the Buddha with the King behind. Any story to this.

 

[KenSmith]

Surprisingly, I found a chart with just one different value from the one at blackjackinfo.

For the rules of :4 decks, S17, D9, DAS, Early Surrender, No Peek,

Has RH for 16 vs 10, while Blackjack info is RS.

Especially surprising since Online-Casinos.com uses a licensed version of the Strategy Engine from here.

The change to RS here was made a while back after some discussion. When surrender is available, RS is correct because any non-surrenderable 16s are by definition 3 or more cards.

The Online-Casinos engine predates this change.

 

[KenSmith]

Ken just curious. Could you explain your Avatar or picture beside your name. You have what looks like the Buddha with the King behind. Any story to this.

Sorry, no cool story. While I am not a Buddhist I do identify with many of the ideas of the religion.

I was recently thinking about replacing my avatar, since this one has been in place quite a while.

 

[Finn Dog]

Ken or Sonny:

Inputting a 6D H17 DAS LS game into the blackjackinfo.com engine gives an estimated HA of 0.58% as you know.

Just wondering why the option of RSA isn't offered? If it was, I'm estimating the HA for this game comes down to 0.46%?

Thanks in advance,

FD

 

[KenSmith]

Inputting a 6D H17 DAS LS game into the blackjackinfo.com engine gives an estimated HA of 0.58% as you know.

Just wondering why the option of RSA isn't offered? If it was, I'm estimating the HA for this game comes down to 0.46%?

Since RSA doesn't affect strategy it was never included in the engine. I keep planning on adding that and a few other choices, but apparently I'm better at procrastinating. :grin:

According to BJMath, RSA in 6 decks adds 0.069 so the effect is slightly smaller than you estimated.
http://www.bjmath.com/bjmath/conseq/rules.htm (Archive copy)

 

[QFIT]

Including the cut card effect, I get a difference for RSA of about .09% and an EV for 6D, H17, DAS, LS, RSA of -.468%. Modern Blackjack page 44.

 

[rrwoods]

any non-surrenderable 16s are by definition 3 or more cards.

Is this true? I've never played in a casino with surrender available (that will change soon! :grin, but if I split into a 16, can I surrender that?