Best table seat for card counters

[Claza]

Why is the 3rd base seat the best seat at the blackjack table?

When the count is favorable and I want to bet bigger, don't I risk having all the good cards being "wasted" on the first 6 players and by the time I get my turn to possibly get stuck with a big bet on a now-unfavorable count?

It seems to me I might be better off at 1st base, where I'm first in line for good cards when the count is good. Assuming of course I can count the cards just as well from that angle.

 

[sixdonly]

1st Base make sense, but...

Count could also increase by the time you are dealt your cards giving you a greater advantage. I'm just an advanced poppy, what do I know...
In reality it probably dosen't make a difference.

Ask Learning to Count....I have been monitoring board for some time and when you read between the lines concerning his posts, he's two different persons.

 

[EasyRhino]

There's a flipside to sitting at first base. Say you get an 8 vs dealer 6, and you might double if the count is high enough, but then everyone else at the table gets high cards too, and the count craters before it's even your turn to play?

My understanding is that seating position doesn't really affect your betting. However, 3rd base has two more minor effects:
1) You get more time to complete your count before making a play decision.
2) Other cards played out on the hand may affect your playing strategy, so you get slightly more information before you play.

 

[tedloc]

Imho

Why is the 3rd base seat the best seat at the blackjack table?

When the count is favorable and I want to bet bigger, don't I risk having all the good cards being "wasted" on the first 6 players and by the time I get my turn to possibly get stuck with a big bet on a now-unfavorable count?

It seems to me I might be better off at 1st base, where I'm first in line for good cards when the count is good. Assuming of course I can count the cards just as well from that angle.

Count me as one who believes that 1st base is the seat to have, if you are a card counter. As a counter the most important decision is to raise or lower your bet. It the count is +4 and you decide to move from 2 units to 6 units, you sure dont want to see the first 5 cards be 10's, when your sitting at third base. Those other decisions, such as hitting you 12 vs. dealer 4, with a negative count, don't have to be made, until it's your turn to play.

 

[supercoolmancool]

You are wrong Tedloc. When the count is +4 it is +4 for the entire composition of the remaining shoe. If they were to give the 11th card and 3rd card from the back everytime you would still be playing at +4. It doesn't matter where you sit.

 

[ScottH]

You are wrong Tedloc. When the count is +4 it is +4 for the entire composition of the remaining shoe. If they were to give the 11th card and 3rd card from the back everytime you would still be playing at +4. It doesn't matter where you sit.

Right. If you are at third base with a TC of +4, the other people could all be dealt low cards increasing the count even furthur. You know the count and that there are more high cards than there are low cards, you just never know exactly where they are with straight counting.

 

[tedloc]

Please explain

You are wrong Tedloc. When the count is +4 it is +4 for the entire composition of the remaining shoe. If they were to give the 11th card and 3rd card from the back everytime you would still be playing at +4. It doesn't matter where you sit.

I'm not understanding your post. Are you saying that if the count is +4 at the start of the hand and 5 tens are delt, that the count is still +4????

 

[supercoolmancool]

No. But what I am saying is that you don't know where those 10s are. For all a simple card counter knows, they are evenly distributed throughout the entire remaining shoe. Everywhere it is +4 so it doesn't matter where your card came from. Sitting at 3rd base you will get cards that don't come out right away but still carry a +4 advantage before you see the other cards because when you bet the entire shoe was +4 so it doesn't matter where the cards get pulled from wether the first, middle, or last.

Your advantage will change by the cards everyone else gets but before they are delt you could pick any random card from the shoe and it would have the same probability of being a 10 or A as the very next card.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

There's a flipside to sitting at first base. Say you get an 8 vs dealer 6, and you might double if the count is high enough, but then everyone else at the table gets high cards too, and the count craters before it's even your turn to play?

My understanding is that seating position doesn't really affect your betting. However, 3rd base has two more minor effects:
1) You get more time to complete your count before making a play decision.
2) Other cards played out on the hand may affect your playing strategy, so you get slightly more information before you play.

Exactly. The benefit of 3rd base for counting is you see more cards before you have to make your playing decision. This is more significant in DD and SD games than in shoe.

But sometimes 1st base has advantages too in that you can peek at undealt cards in the shoe.

 

[QFIT]

There is a little known quirk to playing SD sitting in seat 1 if you split tens:

http://www.qfit.com/card-counting-fbp.htm

 

[Claza]

Exactly. The benefit of 3rd base for counting is you see more cards before you have to make your playing decision. .......

I see betting decisions and playing decisions as two separate things.

I'll always (try to) make the correct playing decision based on the basic stategy adjusted for the current count, no matter where I sit.

When I started this thread I meant "Where's the best seat as far as betting decisions go?". 3rd base may see the count go up or down by the time they see their card, but they are stuck with the betting decision they made at the beginning of the round. 1st base will not see the count go up or down, they can just adjust their bet based on the current count without worying about the count changing by the time they see their first hand.

 

[tedloc]

Yea, but

No. But what I am saying is that you don't know where those 10s are. For all a simple card counter knows, they are evenly distributed throughout the entire remaining shoe. Everywhere it is +4 so it doesn't matter where your card came from. Sitting at 3rd base you will get cards that don't come out right away but still carry a +4 advantage before you see the other cards because when you bet the entire shoe was +4 so it doesn't matter where the cards get pulled from wether the first, middle, or last.

Your advantage will change by the cards everyone else gets but before they are delt you could pick any random card from the shoe and it would have the same probability of being a 10 or A as the very next card.

I understand what you said but if you were at third base and had raised your bet on a +4 count and saw the first 5 players get a 10, would you change your bet, if given a choice? I realize that when the count is positive, the 10/A are evenely distributed and can also be below the cut card. My point was that when the count is high and other players in front of you, get the high cards ,the count changes and given a choice, you might decide to change your bet.

 

[tedloc]

I agree

I see betting decisionss and playing decisions as two separate things.

I'll always (try to) make the correct playing decision based on the basic stategy adjusted for the current count, no matter where I sit.

When I started this thread I meant "Where's the best seat as far as betting decisions go?". 3rd base may see the count go up or down by the time they see their card, but they are stuck with the betting decision they made at the beginning of the round. 1st base will not see the count go up or down, they can just adjust their bet based on the current count without worying about the count changing by the time they see their first hand.

That's what I've been trying to say to SuperCool. The count is high as you make your bet and if the first 5 cards out of the shoe lower it, given the chance, you would more than likely change your bet.

 

[QFIT]

What's the difference if the players in front of you or in back of you get the high cards They are still out. All seats are the same as far as betting efiiciency.

 

[tedloc]

Betting Decisions

What's the difference if the players in front of you or in back of you get the high cards They are still out. All seats are the same as far as betting efiiciency.

This question was about BETTING. Once you BET, it doesn't matter where you are sitting. You can't change your bet. We're taking about your decision to raise your bet. You raise it when the count is HIGH. We already know, that it is better to play heads up with the dealer, when it is High, so with that in mind, when at 3rd base, you make the bet with a high count but by the time the cards get to you it has gone down. So if the rules allowed you to, you would not be raising your bet.

 

[sagefr0g]

woulda, coulda, shoulda

I understand what you said but if you were at third base and had raised your bet on a +4 count and saw the first 5 players get a 10, would you change your bet, if given a choice? I realize that when the count is positive, the 10/A are evenely distributed and can also be below the cut card. My point was that when the count is high and other players in front of you, get the high cards ,the count changes and given a choice, you might decide to change your bet.

it makes no differance for betting decisions. of course your dissapointment rate is high when you see the players ahead of you get the good cards and you get the stiffs but the opposite is also true.
where this scenerio does hold significance is with regard to the question of how many hands to play when one on one with the dealer. it's better to play only one hand in this case for the very reason that you stipulate.

 

[ScottH]

This question was about BETTING. Once you BET, it doesn't matter where you are sitting. You can't change your bet. We're taking about your decision to raise your bet. You raise it when the count is HIGH. We already know, that it is better to play heads up with the dealer, when it is High, so with that in mind, when at 3rd base, you make the bet with a high count but by the time the cards get to you it has gone down. So if the rules allowed you to, you would not be raising your bet.

Why are we talking about whether or not we would change our bet after we see what cards come out? We all know that you cant do that, and before the cards are dealt we never know if we should lower it (high cards come out to other players) or raise it (low cards go to other players). When we place our bet, everyone has the exact same chance of getting the excess in tens/aces, no matter where they are sitting.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

There is a little known quirk to playing SD sitting in seat 1 if you split tens:

http://www.qfit.com/card-counting-fbp.htm

Interesting effect. It doesn't seem like a practical matter though because it's not probable to make any money playing SD at a full table anyway.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

I see betting decisionss and playing decisions as two separate things.

I'll always (try to) make the correct playing decision based on the basic stategy adjusted for the current count, no matter where I sit.

When I started this thread I meant "Where's the best seat as far as betting decisions go?". 3rd base may see the count go up or down by the time they see their card, but they are stuck with the betting decision they made at the beginning of the round. 1st base will not see the count go up or down, they can just adjust their bet based on the current count without worying about the count changing by the time they see their first hand.

Doesn't matter. That is the beauty of the True Count Theorem. This states that the true count throughout the shoe, on the average, never changes no matter what it is.

Here's an example. Let's say the true count goes up to +2, and you raise your bet in accordance. But when the delaer deals, he starts pulling the cards from the back of the shoe instead of the front. Or he starts randomly pulling cards from the shoe and dealing them out. Would you care? You wouldn't because the increased chance of the high cards coming out is the same no matter where in the shoe the cards come from.

Thus it doesn't matter if you get the next 2 cards out of the shoe, or cards that are dealt out at the end of the next round.

 

[ScottH]

Doesn't matter. That is the beauty of the True Count Theorem. This states that the true count throughout the shoe, on the average, never changes no matter what it is.

Here's an example. Let's say the true count goes up to +2, and you raise your bet in accordance. But when the delaer deals, he starts pulling the cards from the back of the shoe instead of the front. Or he starts randomly pulling cards from the shoe and dealing them out. Would you care? You wouldn't because the increased chance of the high cards coming out is the same no matter where in the shoe the cards come from.

Thus it doesn't matter if you get the next 2 cards out of the shoe, or cards that are dealt out at the end of the next round.

The ploppies would freak out if the dealer pulled cards out from a different position of the shoe. You can't mess with the sacred flow of the cards!