blackjack is for ENTERTAINMENT ONLY1

[joel099]

My opinion is--- after playing blackjack for over three years is that it is for entertainment ONLY and is IMPOSSIBLE to use the game as a means to make a living.why? Because I TRIED to make a living at this game!!!: The reason why you cant make a living at this game is because- you cant win EVERY time, no matter how hard you try or no matter WHAT betting method you use.

Sure --Casinos will tell you that if you play basic strategy you will only be within 1-2% of your starting bankroll after a few hours of play.. But this is NOT always the case!..In fact this is a bunch of krap the casino says to get you to stay on the tables longer even though you have lost a substantial amount..
Remember----When you are playing a multi-deck shoe (6 decks_ ANYTHING CAN and WILL happen..but one thing is for SURE.

You will get MORE losses than wins.......... so if you dont bet higher on the wins, you will lose overall..And you CANT use a negative progression either because on a multideck shoe- a player WILL RECEIVE 7-8 losses in a row just about every 100 hands!!..:flame: .so how can you win CONSISTENTLY on a game that has a negative expectation ----where for every win it gives you approx 3 LOSSES??:


simple. DONT PLAY. .thats my advice, after three years and thousands, and thousands of dollars lost at the tables.I tried EVERY negative progression and
every positive progression known to man.

I tried one hand, two hands and even three hands at a time.Two and three hands at atime- just ACCELERATED
the losses even faster.

The BEST system is a positive progression betting but
remember this is ONLY a 50-50 shot because often times you wont get more than TWO winning hands in a row-even after being dealt 2-3 shoes.your pattern will go like this:
LLWLWLLLWWLLLWLLWLLLLWWLLLLWLLWLWLLWWLLLLLLW
14 WINS 30LOSSES.

THESE RESULTS ARE VERY TYPICAL ON A MULTIDECK SHOE..SO ON A 500 DOLLAR BUY IN- YOU ARE NOW DOWN 250 DOLLARS.NOW WHAT DO YOU DO?:sad:

THE ANSWER IS YOU CANT WIN AT THE GAME OF BLACKJACK NO MATTER HOW THE CASINO PROFESSES THAT YOU WILL BE WITHIN 1-2% OF YOUR BANKROLL BY PLAYING BASIC STARTEGY ALL NIGHT LONG..THATS BULL SH**.

JOEL

 

[Preston]

You can win at blackjack if you know what you are doing. Read some more books.

If you're a basic strategy player you will lose. If you learn to track cards you have an advantage.

Sometimes I will go broke, but I am winning more often than I am losing. I can play in any count if I want to, and I am not afraid to break from basic strategy if the count justifies it.

What methods did you use? If you were using the martingdale that explains everything. What betting spread? Did you count? What were the rules you were playing?

 

[shadroch]

A quick review of Joels seven previous posts explains just about everything.
Perhaps you should have stuck with Oscars Grind.Or slots.

 

[EasyRhino]

Personally, I find playing with an advantage to be very entertaining.

 

[jimpenn]

I would like to hear some more from Joel. First of all, do you use a counting system? After you answer this initial question I have a few more.

Thanks Joel,

Jim P

 

[supercoolmancool]

Wow. A professional gambler for 3 years playing a -EV game. That is kind of funny. But I still remember that one progressionist professional that averaged $500 per session for the last 25 years so it can be done.

 

[Mikeaber]

I found nothing really wrong in anything Joel stated...even the category he posted in. Except the beginning statement that states "My opinion is--- after playing blackjack for over three years is that it is for entertainment ONLY and is IMPOSSIBLE to use the game as a means to make a living." That is a true statement based on the information given concerning methods Joel used:

Joel, you are absolutely CORRECT. As a progression bettor, you are not going to come out ahead. Certainly not "in the long run" but your results seem somewhat skewed to the south from what I've seen though depending on the progression, you certainly could have lost a ton. What shocks me is that you stuck with a progression method in an attempt to earn a living at Blackjack for THREE years! I think maybe you should have been a bit more objective as to the methods employed.

You CAN gain a true advantage but you won't do it by betting progressions.

 

[Brutus]

I completely agree.
Joel shouldnt play blackjack.

 

[Sonny]

Actually, Joel makes some very good points that many novice players don’t understand until it is too late. Some of his best advice is:

“you cant win EVERY time, no matter how hard you try or no matter WHAT betting method you use.”

“When you are playing a multi-deck shoe (6 decks) ANYTHING CAN and WILL happen.”

“Sure --Casinos will tell you that if you play basic strategy you will only be within 1-2% of your starting bankroll after a few hours of play.. But this is NOT always the case!”

“so how can you win CONSISTENTLY on a game that has a negative expectation…simple. DONT PLAY.”

The latter two observations show the importance of understanding variance (both SD and ROR) and the power of Wonging (not playing when the odds are against you). However, there are still quite a few misconceptions in his post:

…is IMPOSSIBLE to use the game as a means to make a living.

There are people out there right now that are making a living at this game. It is definitely tough, but not impossible. It just takes a lot of skill and even more discipline…and a big bankroll doesn’t hurt either. Even so, blackjack can be a great way to make some supplemental income for people who work full time, or it can provide income for retired or disabled people, or it can just be a fun way to get a free vacation a few times a year. There are plenty of ways to make money playing blackjack.

I tried one hand, two hands and even three hands at a time.Two and three hands at atime- just ACCELERATED the losses even faster.

What were you expecting? When you are playing at a disadvantage, as all BS players do, putting more money on the table will only lose you more money and lose it faster. The more you bet, the more you lose. There is no reason to think anything different.

The BEST system is a positive progression betting but
remember this is ONLY a 50-50 shot

The best system is to not use a progression at all! Progression systems require that you raise your bets when you are still at a disadvantage. As I said before, the more you bet the more you lose.

In any case, playing BS is not a 50-50 shot, it is about a 43/49 shot (the other 8 are ties). You will lose about 49 of every 100 hands you play while a mere 43 of those will be winners. That is considerably different than a fair game. Obviously you shouldn’t go into a casino expecting a fair game. And even if you did find one, a betting progression would not beat it. You would still expect to break even in the long run and be within about 3 standard deviation in the short run.

I tried EVERY negative progression and every positive progression known to man.

There’s the problem right there. Frankly, I’m surprised that you have any money left after trying them all! That is why we constantly warn people about the dangers of progression systems on this website. They can be fun to use but they are still losing systems.

If you’re serious about playing for a living, you came to the right place. You can still make that dream happen if you play properly. Reading the posts on this website will help you hit the ground running. I suggest you try a few of the free resources Card Counting forum and re-read some of the old posts. You will be an Advantage Player in no time!

-Sonny-

 

[Kaiser]

This line sticks out for me:

My opinion is--- after playing blackjack for over three years is that it is for entertainment ONLY and is IMPOSSIBLE to use the game as a means to make a living.why? Because I TRIED to make a living at this game!!!:

Many people can't comprehend how another person can do something they think is impossible. I mean, if you spend three years trying to do something and completely fail, it's tough to believe that other people are successfully doing it.

It's just too bad you didn't have more knowledge and training at the onset of your three year crack at the game. If you weren't using any methods other than what you mentioned, it's actually pretty remarkable you lasted as long as you did.

 

[joel099]

IF someone says they make a living playing blackjack..

To answer a few questions:

If someone says that they make a LIVING playing blackjack, I would be EXTREMELY SKEPTICAL.. First what is their definition of making a living?..50-100 bucks profit on a weekend BINGE GAMBLING session does NOT QUALIFY AS MAKING A LIVING!!!..that is hardly a living..what I want to hear is a person making 100-200 bucks PROFIT--- PER DAY for five-6 days a week....THATS making a living..and that DOESNT HAPPEN in THE GAME OF blackjack..why?

Because over the past year ,I have hung around casinos in arizona and nevada EVERY DAY for the past year. Sometimes two hours per day- sometimes 8 hours per day- sometimes 16-24 hours per day......What does happen is a person will get on a lucky RUN where they will win $300,600 , 1200 bucks in a 2 hour session for three days in a row!!!..then bam!!- On the fourth or mabe the fifth day they come in one day and lose $3000!!!! in that same 3-4 hour session!!!!!!..so now they are back to even or slightly below- their starting point...

THATS WHY I SAY BLACKJACK IS FOR ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSES ONLY:


I TRIED COUNTING CARDS..EVERYONE HAS AT ONE POINT and even when the count is as high as +10 and you increase your bet -REMEMBER YOU CAN STILL LOSE YOUR HAND!!!..

JUST BECAUSE THE COUNT IS HIGH ONLY MEANS THAT YOU HAVE A GREAT CHANCE OF GETTING A DECENT HAND. WHEN THE COUNT IS HIGH- THE PROBABILITY OF THE DEALER BUSTING IS HIGHER AS WELL.THIS IS ALL GREAT NEWS-BUT THIS ONLY GIVES YOU A 60% CHANCE OF WINNING.IS THAT ENOUGH TO INCREASE YOUR BET?...JUST BECAUSE THE COUNT IS +10 AND AFTER 4 SHOES OR 2 HOURS OF PLAY, THIS IS THE HIGHEST ITS BEEN ALL DAY. ARE YOU SURE THAT THIS IS THE TIME TO BET AT LEAST TWICE THE TABLE MINIMUMS?..THINK AGAIN....

WHAT YOU ARE FORGETTING ABOUT IS ONE IMPORTANT FACT-THIS COUNT METHOD HAS BEEN NEUTRALIZED BY THE CASINOS USING MULTIDECK 4,5,6,7,AND EVEN 8 DECK SHOES.(6 DECK SHOE IS THE DEADLIEST)


REMEMBER THESE ARE 6 DECK SHOES THE CASINOS ARE USING- ANY CARD CAN COME OUT AND GIVE THE DEALER THE HAND THEY NEED.THEY DONT BUST OUT AS MUCH AS A TWO DECK SHOE.
WHEN I WAS PLAYING FOR A LIVING-- I WAS COUNTING CARDS USING THE HI-LO METHOD AND THE COUNT WAS UP TO +13 WHICH WAS VERY VERY VERY RARE.IN FACT IT TOOK ME 6 SHOES TO GET THERE.

I INCREASED THE BET TO $300 ON A 25 DOLLAR TABLE.I WAS DOWN $350 AT THAT POINT ANYWAY, BY JUST BETTING TABLE MINIMUMS THROUGH THE LAST 5 SHOES.

I WAS DEALT A 20 AGAINST DEALERS 4 TOP CARD. LOST THE HAND TO THE DEALER MAKING 21. THE COUNT WAS STILL AT +13 SO I LEFT THE BET AT $300. I WAS DEALT ANOTHER 20 AGAINST DEALERS 9 TOP CARD. STILL lOST THE HAND DUE TO DEALER MAKING 21.

THE COUNT WENT TO +10 ,I LOWERED THE BET TO 200 DOLLARS. WAS DEALT A TWENTY AGAIN. DEALER HAD A 7 TOP CARD SHOWING. STILL LOST THE HAND.

COUNT THEN WENT TO +12. WAS DEALT A TWENTY AGAIN(A9) DEALER HAD
BLACKJACK AND LOST THE HAND.

This shows you ANYTHING can happen in blackjack and usually does. When I was trying to play for a living, I would play for 2-3 hours per day or as soon as I showed a 150-200 dollar profit then quit, FIVE days a week.APPROX 2 DAYS A WEEK I ABLE TO ACHIEVE THIS GOAL BUT THEN ON THE THIRD DAY I HAD A LOSS THAN WOULD WIPE OUT THE ENTIRE WEEKS PROFITS..THIS IS HOW BLACKJACK WORKS!!

How many of you out there play for that long a time or play for FIVE DAYS A WEEK?

VERY , VERY ,FEW I am guessing....I like Sonny's quote the best:
"If you’re serious about playing for a living, you came to the right place. You can still make that dream happen if you play properly. ".....

You should have underlined the word DREAM...BECAUSE IT IS A DREAM!!!

REMEMBER.you can play "properly" all you want on a MULTIDECK deck shoe but if the cards are not in YOUR FAVOR you will lose MULTIPLE NUMBER OF HANDS of blackjack. And this costs alot of money, even if its only 15-25 bucks per hand. READ THIS : One time there was myself and another player at a twenty five dollar minimum table playing 25 dollar min bets. At the end of one shoe BOTH PLAYERS WON A COMBINED TOTAL OF SIX HANDS out of the whole shoe!! That means 30 hands were won by the dealer/ HOUSE!!!.
Now granted thats a HORRIBLE shoe- and your saying "well gee- I would have got up and left the table after the first six lossess and looked for another table.But I have had shoes before where I have lost the first several hands and then the shoe turned around and I won 80 % of the remaining hands....so getting up and walking out at the beginning of the shoe is not always the right thing to do, either.

IN BLACKJACK-players say "well you'll never get two bad shoes in a row"..WRONG!!!!..you can get three, four and sometimes as many as FIVE DEALER BIASED SHOES IN A ROW!!..Usually after two bad shoes your are down quite a bit of money so you stick around, hoping shoe #3 is a good one"because you are DUE a GOOD SHOE"...(wrong blackjack fallacy) so you start betting higher to "recoup" the losess from the previously two bad shoes.

BACKJACK IS FOR ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSES ONLY- SHOW ME A BLACKJACK PLAYER THAT CONSISTENTLY MAKES $200 DOLLARS PROFIT EVERYDAY -DAY-IN-DAY OUT, SIX DAYS A WEEK (WITH NOT ONE LOSING DAYS IN A MONTH).......FOR EVEN SIX MONTHS, AND I WILL GIVE THEM $50,000 CASH IF THEY ARE ABLE TO PROVE THIS WITH CERTIFIED RECORDS.

ALONG WITH THE FACT THAT HAVE TO FLY OUT TO WHERE THIS PERSON LIVES AND WATCH THEM PLAY BLACKJACK FOR A SOLID MONTH AND PERSONALLY OBSERVE A MONTH'S WORTH OF PLAY(24 DAYS) WITH NO LOSING DAYS,(AND $200 PROFIT EACH DAY) BEFORE I HAND OVER THE STACK OF 100 DOLLAR BILLS TOTALLING $50,000.

THIS MEANS THEY MUST PLAY TWENTY-FOUR DAYS OF BLACKJACK IN A MONTH WITHOUT A LOSING DAY---
IT AINT GONNA HAPPEN. EVEN IF THEY PLAY ON THE INTERNET OR ANY LAND BASED CASINO..IT JUST AINT HAPPENING..

HOPEFULLY THIS ANSWERED SOME OF YOUR QUSTIONS!!

JOEL

 

[Mikeaber]

You are absolutely right Joel. You can't make a living at it. You can't make any money with it. It is the Devil's game. Stay away from it at all costs. It's EVIL!

 

[Kaiser]

Dude. You DON'T have to YELL at us, REALLY.

 

[SystemsTrader]

BACKJACK IS FOR ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSES ONLY- SHOW ME A BLACKJACK PLAYER THAT CONSISTENTLY MAKES $200 DOLLARS PROFIT EVERYDAY -DAY-IN-DAY OUT, SIX DAYS A WEEK (WITH NOT ONE LOSING DAYS IN A MONTH).......FOR EVEN SIX MONTHS, AND I WILL GIVE THEM $50,000 CASH IF THEY ARE ABLE TO PROVE THIS WITH CERTIFIED RECORDS.

ALONG WITH THE FACT THAT HAVE TO FLY OUT TO WHERE THIS PERSON LIVES AND WATCH THEM PLAY BLACKJACK FOR A SOLID MONTH AND PERSONALLY OBSERVE A MONTH'S WORTH OF PLAY(24 DAYS) WITH NO LOSING DAYS,(AND $200 PROFIT EACH DAY) BEFORE I HAND OVER THE STACK OF 100 DOLLAR BILLS TOTALLING $50,000.

THIS MEANS THEY MUST PLAY TWENTY-FOUR DAYS OF BLACKJACK IN A MONTH WITHOUT A LOSING DAY---
IT AINT GONNA HAPPEN. EVEN IF THEY PLAY ON THE INTERNET OR ANY LAND BASED CASINO..IT JUST AINT HAPPENING..

HOPEFULLY THIS ANSWERED SOME OF YOUR QUSTIONS!!

JOEL

Joel after reading your post I now know why you failed to make money at it. You have very little understanding of the game of blackjack and the probabilities involved. I can more than bet you were undercapitalized as well.

As for your challenge I accept it if you would be willing to modify the rules slightly. I believe I can make $200 a day average over the one month period based on 24 days playing. I will provide my own bankroll and cover my expenses. We can meet in Vegas to do this and other members on this board can observe and be witnesses. You will have to put the $50,000 in escrow before we start. Are you up for the challenge?

 

[mdlbj]

I had the same sentiments after loosing 350 bucks my first time playing at a blackjack table.. Then I studied for about 6 months and learned as much as I could, even learning how to practice not just practicing alone.. Eventually it became quite boring to sit at a table and play. Even while winning.

SystemsTrader ,
Id love to watch.. Just let me know where. PM me. Will remain anonymous however.

 

[supercoolmancool]

I gotta side with Joel on this one. It didn't take me long to reach his conclusion. However, I believe in pro hole card players and shuffle trackers. Pro solo card counters on the other hand...I am a little skeptical.

 

[Bojack1]

I'm sorry Joel but I must disagree completely with you on this. I have, along with several other teamates been making a living at this game since the mid 90's. I get the impression that if you think that progressions were at all a viable way to play this game profitably, than you probably never had a true grasp on the concept of card counting. Just the fact that you would think you would need to win everyday you play, or even that you would play 6 days a week to make a living leads me to believe you don't really understand how its done. As a matter of fact it would be quite impossible to play at the same place at the stakes needed to make a living more than a couple of days in a row without totally burning out yourself at that casino. If that wasn't the case for you, my guess would be the casino didn't deem you any kind of AP threat. And no insult intended, from the sounds of it they were right.

I'm not sure where you got your notion on how to play this game for a living, but from what I've read its no surprise you have the opinion that you do. I'll tell you this, I've had bad shoes, followed by a bad day, followed by a bad week, and sometimes a bad month. Its all part of the game. But if you play correctly and bet with the properly sized unit in accordance with your bankroll, and bet in proportion to your advantage, you'll be playing a strong game. If you throw in wonging in and out of good and bad shoes, searching for the games with the best rules, and use some of the advanced techniques, in my opinion you will be hard pressed to have any prolonged losing streaks.

As far as your challenge goes, if you keep it worded as originally stated than you're a lock to win. If you change it to the way Systems Trader has stated it, I believe you will soon be parted from your money. It would be very strange and lucky indeed to win 24 straight sessions, however to average the win you described over a months time is very much a possibility, one that if I was you would not want to bet against. But far be for me to ruin a good thing for Systems Trader. Joel if you still want to make that challenge, than I offer you and whomever takes it good luck, and if the taker is any kind of AP, enjoy your new found money.

 

[nc-tom]

You are absolutely right Joel. You can't make a living at it. You can't make any money with it. It is the Devil's game. Stay away from it at all costs. It's EVIL!

Yep Joel Mike is right stop this insane game asap. Try scrabble or chess. more relaxing. LOL

 

[ScottH]

I tried EVERY negative progression and
every positive progression known to man.

Looks like we have found your problem!

 

[Sonny]

what I want to hear is a person making 100-200 bucks PROFIT--- PER DAY

That’s easy. There are people here who average $25-$60 per hour playing blackjack. Most of them just do it for extra income (not full time) but it can be done consistently.

I’m sorry to hear about your bad experience, but I think I can offer you some advice that will help you quite a bit. Your posts mention several mistakes that you are making. If you can fix them then you might have a change at becoming a successful player.

WHAT YOU ARE FORGETTING ABOUT IS ONE IMPORTANT FACT-THIS COUNT METHOD HAS BEEN NEUTRALIZED BY THE CASINOS USING MULTIDECK 4,5,6,7,AND EVEN 8 DECK SHOES.(6 DECK SHOE IS THE DEADLIEST)

What exactly do you mean by “neutralized”? If you are using the True Count then it has not been neutralized at all, it has been restored to the “count per segment” value that has always been used. As long as your TC calculations are accurate you will be betting and playing properly based on the content of the shoe.

WHEN I WAS PLAYING FOR A LIVING-- I WAS COUNTING CARDS USING THE HI-LO METHOD AND THE COUNT WAS UP TO +13 WHICH WAS VERY VERY VERY RARE.IN FACT IT TOOK ME 6 SHOES TO GET THERE.

Yup, a TC of +13 is going to be pretty rare. You shouldn’t be waiting that long to make your max bet. A bet spread like that can have you playing at a disadvantage even though you are counting. A more typical bet ramp will have you gradually raising your bets between +2 and +5 and will correlate to the new advantage at each TC. I think you need to learn a lot more about proper betting and playing techniques before you decide to become a pro player.

I WAS COUNTING CARDS USING THE HI-LO METHOD AND THE COUNT WAS UP TO +13..I INCREASED THE BET TO $300 ON A 25 DOLLAR TABLE…THE COUNT WENT TO +10 ,I LOWERED THE BET TO 200 DOLLARS.

I don’t understand why you would change your bet. Anything above a +4 TC should be your max bet. Why would you lower your bet when you have such a large advantage? Either your bet spread is not correct or you are not following it diligently. Either one is enough to turn a good player into a losing one. You need to make a solid game plan then stick to it.

REMEMBER.you can play "properly" all you want on a MULTIDECK deck shoe but if the cards are not in YOUR FAVOR you will lose MULTIPLE NUMBER OF HANDS of blackjack.

But why would you be playing if the count is not in your favor? As I mentioned in my first post, walking away from bad shoes is the key to success. It just doesn’t make sense to throw your money away when you know you are at a disadvantage. I think this may be another reason you had such a bad experience.

When I was trying to play for a living, I would play for 2-3 hours per day or as soon as I showed a 150-200 dollar profit then quit,

There’s another huge problem right there! You can’t just play for a few hours and expect to win every day. Every reputable book and website stresses the fact that you have to play as many hours as you can in order to insure a profit. You should base your play on your EV, not your short term results. As you’ve seen, the swings in blackjack can be huge. The only defense against them is to play enough hands to overcome the variance. You can’t do that by only playing 2-3 hours per day. That is the sort of “gambler’s thinking” that an Advantage Player needs to get past in order to be successful.

FIVE days a week.APPROX 2 DAYS A WEEK I ABLE TO ACHIEVE THIS GOAL BUT THEN ON THE THIRD DAY I HAD A LOSS THAN WOULD WIPE OUT THE ENTIRE WEEKS PROFITS..THIS IS HOW BLACKJACK WORKS!!

Unfortunately, you’re right. That is why it is so important to play as much as you can. The luck will come and go, but eventually the good and bad luck will cancel out and you will be left with your EV. If you don’t play enough hands you will be stuck in the short term and you will be relying on “lucky shoes” to determine your success. That is how gamblers play, not Advantage Players.

But I have had shoes before where I have lost the first several hands and then the shoe turned around and I won 80 % of the remaining hands....so getting up and walking out at the beginning of the shoe is not always the right thing to do, either.

That is why it is so important to keep an accurate TC. You have to know when to leave. As Don Schlesinger puts it, you have to know when it is more profitable to be walking than sitting. This is crucial information for success at the shoes.

IN BLACKJACK-players say "well you'll never get two bad shoes in a row"

Who says that? Only about 1/4th of the hands you see will be positive. I’ve heard that about 1 out of 5 shoes becomes profitable. Obviously smart players know how rare it is to find a profitable situation. That is yet another reason to know when to walk and when to sit.

So by making just a few changes to your bet spread and playing style, and reading a few more books, you can become a successful pro fairly easily!

-Sonny-