I did fine at at Hilton LV with a 1-4 spread 6-deck game, $10 min. One session I got down a bit and had to pull a marathon to get it back, but on the others I consistently won. They had ls but it was H17. I think a $10 table with a $45 max bet with wonging out would work ok as long as it was S17 and ls. Obviously it needs to be DAS and decent penetration also.
Card Counting for the Recreational
- Thread starter kwality
- Start date
sagefr0g
Well-Known Member
yea i think you could 'squeek' through with a spread like that if you vigourously wong out and preferably wong in. i ran a hastely prepared sim on it last night. playinng only positive counts and starting out fresh shoes (wonging in and out).Knox said:
the sim made money but busted out a $5000 grand bankroll (by $1,117) before it got in the black. apparently the variance would be pretty wicked.
best regards,
mr fr0g
josh3623
Member
the easiest professional count
I would go for a balanced count.
High opt I
very simple
3-6's are counted as +1
10 value cards are -1
all other cards are 0(don't count them)
just get this down 1st
then start worrying about aces
when you get better you will keep a
side count of them.
to practice this count, just get a deck of cards
and start with the first card, count all of them.
you know you are counting right if you get a count of 0
at the last card. practice this all the time.
this is called running count.
FINDING THE TRUE COUNT
with six decks you will keep an eye on the discard tray
for example lets say you have a running count of +12
look at the discard tray, you see around two decks in the tray.
now you know it is a 6 deck shoe, so subtract 2 decks used, from 6 decks, now you know there are four decks left in the shoe. divide the running count of +12 by the amount of decks left in the shoe, 4, this gives you your true count, which would be +3 in this case. +3 is a significant advantage, up your bets.
Betting strategy, the most common easiest betting strategy, would be to bet
1 unit for a true count of +1 or less, 2 units for +2, 3 units for +3 up to 5 units for +5, and just stay at +5 even if the count goes higher.
also when the count is + you want to adjust your basic strategy, to stand more often on stiff hands. for example, if the true count is high, +3 or better, consider standing on 14s 15s and 16s against a dealers 7-10, and all low cards ie, if you have a 12 and the dealer is showing a 2 or 3, stand; and double down more aggressively. ie consider doubling on a seven or eight versus a dealer up card of 4,5, or 6.
when the true count drops below -1 or -2 just get off the table, and don't double down if you decide to stick it out(which I wouldn't recomend).
eventually when you get better you will keep a side count of aces
even without aces I believe this method beats unbalanced stratagies like KO
if you don't want to keep a side count of aces you can do a variation of this method
where
2-4s and 6s are +1
5s are +2
10 value cards are -1
and aces are -2
all other cards are 0
this is easier then keeping a side count of aces and still very effective.
I prefer to keep a side count of aces because
in the case of knowing whether to stand on stiff hands or double,
aces are like low cards, they actually hurt you. For example if you double down on an 11 and get an ace, you are screwed.
if you stand on a stiff hand cause the count is high which means high cards are overdue, the ace doesn't help the dealer bust like a ten card.
but in the case of how much to up your bets the ace does help you even more than a ten, because of your potential to get a natural, a natural helps you in a way that it cannot help the house, cause you don't pay the casino time and a half when they get a natural. When aces are overdue, you want to have more money on the table.
So it is good to have a count that differentiates aces from tens.
For more info on this simple yet very effective strategy, read
"the world's best blackjack book" by humphreys.
hope this helps
Josh
I would go for a balanced count.
High opt I
very simple
3-6's are counted as +1
10 value cards are -1
all other cards are 0(don't count them)
just get this down 1st
then start worrying about aces
when you get better you will keep a
side count of them.
to practice this count, just get a deck of cards
and start with the first card, count all of them.
you know you are counting right if you get a count of 0
at the last card. practice this all the time.
this is called running count.
FINDING THE TRUE COUNT
with six decks you will keep an eye on the discard tray
for example lets say you have a running count of +12
look at the discard tray, you see around two decks in the tray.
now you know it is a 6 deck shoe, so subtract 2 decks used, from 6 decks, now you know there are four decks left in the shoe. divide the running count of +12 by the amount of decks left in the shoe, 4, this gives you your true count, which would be +3 in this case. +3 is a significant advantage, up your bets.
Betting strategy, the most common easiest betting strategy, would be to bet
1 unit for a true count of +1 or less, 2 units for +2, 3 units for +3 up to 5 units for +5, and just stay at +5 even if the count goes higher.
also when the count is + you want to adjust your basic strategy, to stand more often on stiff hands. for example, if the true count is high, +3 or better, consider standing on 14s 15s and 16s against a dealers 7-10, and all low cards ie, if you have a 12 and the dealer is showing a 2 or 3, stand; and double down more aggressively. ie consider doubling on a seven or eight versus a dealer up card of 4,5, or 6.
when the true count drops below -1 or -2 just get off the table, and don't double down if you decide to stick it out(which I wouldn't recomend).
eventually when you get better you will keep a side count of aces
even without aces I believe this method beats unbalanced stratagies like KO
if you don't want to keep a side count of aces you can do a variation of this method
where
2-4s and 6s are +1
5s are +2
10 value cards are -1
and aces are -2
all other cards are 0
this is easier then keeping a side count of aces and still very effective.
I prefer to keep a side count of aces because
in the case of knowing whether to stand on stiff hands or double,
aces are like low cards, they actually hurt you. For example if you double down on an 11 and get an ace, you are screwed.
if you stand on a stiff hand cause the count is high which means high cards are overdue, the ace doesn't help the dealer bust like a ten card.
but in the case of how much to up your bets the ace does help you even more than a ten, because of your potential to get a natural, a natural helps you in a way that it cannot help the house, cause you don't pay the casino time and a half when they get a natural. When aces are overdue, you want to have more money on the table.
So it is good to have a count that differentiates aces from tens.
For more info on this simple yet very effective strategy, read
"the world's best blackjack book" by humphreys.
hope this helps
Josh
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sagefr0g
Well-Known Member
it doesn't sound as if you are using indices for basic strategy departures which would be the most accurate playing method but instead you seem to be taking a approximating strategy tactic towards deciding when to depart from basic strategy. wouldn't such an approach be costly in the long run?josh3623 said:
best regards,
mr fr0g
Sonny
Well-Known Member
The Hi-Opt I is a decent count but it is not really competitive anymore. Without the ace side count it is pretty much useless and underperforms all other popular systems with a BC of only 88%. Even with the side count the BC is just 95%, which is less than Hi-Lo (97%), KO (98%), Red 7 (98%), and most other systems. The PE and IC are both very strong but those are less important than the BC in multi-deck games.josh3623 said:
Also, if you want to use the ace for playing decisions (like doubling elevens and tens etc.) you will want to learn a whole different set of multi-parameter index charts for the ace adjustments. Using an ace side count and multi-parameter tables will make it a very strong system, but there are much better things you can do at the table to get an edge. In my opinion, spending all of your time counting is a waste of brainpower. A player using Hi-Lo who can also track the cards will get a MUCH bigger advantage than someone who is counting their brains out. Shuffle tracking is almost worthless with an ace-neutral system because you are not tracking the aces. Side counting also takes up valuable brainpower that could be used for sequencing, steering, or other advanced techniques. It's also a lot of work for a 0.07% advantage that might be lost due to slower play.
“World’s Greatest Blackjack Book” by Lance Humble. It’s the first BJ book I ever read and Hi-Opt I was the first system I learned. It has some good info but it is very outdated. Many of the newer systems are more powerful, simpler to use and better suited to today's games.josh3623 said:
-Sonny-
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hi ,Mikeaber said:
am interested in your comment(mikeaber) about 1 -20 bet spread in 6 deck games, do you really have to spread to that to make money, i am just about ready to go to a casino for the first time(well a month or so away) and i was planning using a 1-12 bet spread, i will be sitting through mostly all of the shoes i play as there are only 2 tables in casino, although i will wong out early doors if the count is very poor, i use the red 7 count,
Here is my betting strategy
Running count ;
< 0 = 1 unit
0-5 = 2units
6-7 = 3 units or 2 units x 2 hands(4 units)
8-11 = 4 units or 3 units x 2 hands(6 units)
12-17 = 8 units or 5 units x 2 units(10 units)
>=18 = 10 units or 6units x 2 units(12 units)
read that spreading to 2 hands when you have the edge(when bigger bets are out) helps cut variance down a bit, i also like the idea of having 2 smaller stacks than 1 big stack of chips. Plus when the count drops to where neither me or the house has any significant advantage i will still play 2 hands with 1-2 unit(s) then parlay bet if i win that hand if the count calls for it.
I was planning to use some sort of camoflage, i.e, always stand on 16 v's 10, and always double down 10 v's 10, and 11 v's ace, any thoughts on this strategy???
You need to bet according to the true count, not the running count. To obtain the true count, divide the running count by the number of decks left in the shoe (including cards behind the cut card). I am by no means an expert, but I believe that bet ramp to be too slow, in that you won't be getting your big bets out there often enough. For a 1-12 spread, you'll need to Wong in/out when the count calls for it, otherwise you'll have to go with that larger 1-20 spread. The following counts refer to the true count, not the running count. You might try something like this:
+1 = 1 unit
+2 = 2 units
+3 = 4 units
+4 = 6 units
>+4 = 12 units
You may also want to try a bet ramp of 2x count units, capping at 12 units:
+1 = 1 unit (this is the exception)
+2 = 4 units
+3 = 6 units
+4 = 8 units
+5 = 10 units
>=+6 = 12 units
The latter ramp is more conservative in that your big money doesn't come out quite as fast, but you will be putting out more money in lower positive counts. And again, you have to Wong out of negative counts to make a 1-12 spread work well for you. Otherwise, you'll have to open yourself up to the larger 1-20 bet spread.
For both of these ramps, you can spread to 2 hands of 75% of your normal bet in positive counts. So, if your normal bet at a particular count is 4 units, you can play 2 hands of 3 units each. More money on the table, less variance.
I'm sure others will have opinions, and probably better than my own. Best of luck.
+1 = 1 unit
+2 = 2 units
+3 = 4 units
+4 = 6 units
>+4 = 12 units
You may also want to try a bet ramp of 2x count units, capping at 12 units:
+1 = 1 unit (this is the exception)
+2 = 4 units
+3 = 6 units
+4 = 8 units
+5 = 10 units
>=+6 = 12 units
The latter ramp is more conservative in that your big money doesn't come out quite as fast, but you will be putting out more money in lower positive counts. And again, you have to Wong out of negative counts to make a 1-12 spread work well for you. Otherwise, you'll have to open yourself up to the larger 1-20 bet spread.
For both of these ramps, you can spread to 2 hands of 75% of your normal bet in positive counts. So, if your normal bet at a particular count is 4 units, you can play 2 hands of 3 units each. More money on the table, less variance.
I'm sure others will have opinions, and probably better than my own. Best of luck.
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Thank you, cheers for the reply about true count conversion,but as sonny has pointed out, it is an unbalanced count i am currently using.Sonny said:
What are your views on unbalanced counts Sonny???
Do you reccommend unbalanced counts for beginners or are you of the opinion you should start off with a count with Truecount conversion?
josh3623
Member
thanks for correcting me
What system that is easy like high opt I, do you recomend?
thanks for the correction, Lance Humble, yeah its been awhile since I read it, but it sure has worked for me. the truth is I lose track of the aces a lot, but it still works. My strategy has evolved, and I'm not sure about the other counts, most of them are to complicated for me.
I make pretty good money, I log all my wins and losses, and I am way ahead.
and have been, consistently for years.
my betting strategies are unorthodox, and I diverge from basic strategy a lot, based on card observation and intuition, I use the hi opt system mostly to judge the amount of tens in the deck and this lets me know whether or not it is generally safe to use certain progressions. I spend a lot of time at home testing various strategies, I use a six deck shoe, and make a study of the shuffling techniques that the dealers at the casinos where I play use. I would say
Hi Lo? card tracking? hmm, sounds interesting.Sonny said:
What system that is easy like high opt I, do you recomend?
thanks for the correction, Lance Humble, yeah its been awhile since I read it, but it sure has worked for me. the truth is I lose track of the aces a lot, but it still works. My strategy has evolved, and I'm not sure about the other counts, most of them are to complicated for me.
I make pretty good money, I log all my wins and losses, and I am way ahead.
and have been, consistently for years.
my betting strategies are unorthodox, and I diverge from basic strategy a lot, based on card observation and intuition, I use the hi opt system mostly to judge the amount of tens in the deck and this lets me know whether or not it is generally safe to use certain progressions. I spend a lot of time at home testing various strategies, I use a six deck shoe, and make a study of the shuffling techniques that the dealers at the casinos where I play use. I would say
josh3623
Member
It helps
hasn't cost me money. I believe it has made money for me. my bank is up, has been for years, and it keeps going up. but who knows maybe it would be up more if I didn't make such radical departures, in high count situations. It depends on how the cards are breaking as well. you know? I don't always depart when the count is so high(which it rarely is.) but I find by standing more on stiff hands when the count is high, I do much better, especially head on against the dealer.sagefr0g said:it doesn't sound as if you are using indices for basic strategy departures which would be the most accurate playing method but instead you seem to be taking a approximating strategy tactic towards deciding when to depart from basic strategy. wouldn't such an approach be costly in the long run?
best regards,
mr fr0g
Sonny
Well-Known Member
I think unbalanced counts are great! They are very simple to use and they retain most of the power of a balanced system in most cases. They are perfect for beginners because they give you a chance to get up to speed (BS, RC, betting, casino play) quickly and easily. Once you get more experience you can think about switching to another system, which will be MUCH easier once you have been counting for a while. On the other hand, many recreational players will stick with an unbalanced system since it doesn't involve a lot of "work" at the tables. They can get the edge without much effort and still enjoy themselves.BJLover said:
-Sonny-