Casinos dont know if your cheating??

[Martin Gayle]

Cally,

1) I know that some casinos have paid duty plainclothes police milling about. Not so that they can have cheaters paraded infront of them neccessarily but to act as they do at sporting events. Just as paid duty cops on hand. The average street cop would not know what constitutes "game cheat". In some jurisdictions, it seems judges are still hammering out what is cheating and what is not, ie) spooking may be legal in some jurisdictions. It also may be illegal for casinos to offer countable BJ in some jurisdictions.

2) I have been trying to find legal precedent on such cases (I think, like Apeman, I have too much spare time). It seems that Nevada and maybe Native Reservations have less stringent laws in regards to why someone should be detained by casino personel. The more important a casino is to the local economy the more leniency the courts will grant them.

-if you are being detained you are having some of your rights revoked, you are not being tricked into being detained. If you are detained, you should be read a set of rights similar to the miranda rights. If you go to a backroom voluntarily, you are not being detained and can walk out if you like. Your detainer has to have "suspicion" regardless if it is police or security. As soon as the detainer is reasonably probable, you must be arrested and afforded full arrest rights.

-if you are detained you still have rights. A detainment is illegal if they are making you sweat. A detainment must proceed quickly to an arrest or release ie) a frisk for a cheating device. As soon as they let you sit and sweat (hoping for a false confession) the detainment in most jurisdictions should be ruled unlawful.

-What I understand from Grosjean's case is the casino knew he was playing with a convicted card bender. He was holecarding. Holecard play and bent card play would resemble one another closely. The casino jumped the gun and detained for card bending. They easily could have faked the bent cards and Grosjean and Russo would probably still be in prison. They tell the police that Russo is a convicted cheat and his crim record would show it. Again, a beat cop wouldn't know the difference between holecarding and marked carding. Holecarders have been operating well before Grosjean, his legacy, like Uston and Hyland is that he beat the casinos in court.

Maybe I am too arrogant in my confidence that I can trick a casino goon into violating or not affording me my rights. I sort of long for the day when I can take a casino to court over a human rights or constitutional issue. But that is just me.

 

[Apeman]

2) I have been trying to find legal precedent on such cases (I think, like Apeman, I have too much spare time). It seems that Nevada and maybe Native Reservations have less stringent laws in regards to why someone should be detained by casino personel. The more important a casino is to the local economy the more leniency the courts will grant them.

Have you come across the case of Miura v. Riverside Resort & Casino out of Nevada from 2006?

Here are some excerpts

On October 21, 2003, Plaintiff gambled at the Riverside Resort. While using another player's club gaming card, Plaintiff played the video slots. Riverside limits the use of such cards to the holder of the card, with the penalty being forfeiture of all points won. As a result of Plaintiff's inappropriate use of the card, Riverside's Director of Security, co-Defendant Armstrong, received a call to the surveillance room, where surveillance had been investigating fraudulent use of player's club points. Generally, when Riverside detects that a player is using another's card, the casino interviews the individual using the card to determine how it was obtained. After conducting the investigation, Armstrong concluded that Plaintiff was using a card belonging to another and decided to interview him.
Accompanied by a Riverside security officer, Armstrong confronted Plaintiff, asked him to empty his slot machine and remove the other player's card, and follow him off the floor to the elevator lobby to discuss Plaintiff's use of the gaming card. Initially, Plaintiff appeared compliant with the questioning, but things quickly turned violent. Armstrong claims that shortly after their discussion, Plaintiff prepared to strike him and he grabbed Plaintiff's hand to prevent being hit. Plaintiff continued to resist and fight, while a crowd gathered to watch the commotion. Armstrong detained Plaintiff, put him to the floor, and handcuffed him. Plaintiff was taken to the security office, where LVMPD was contacted. He does not dispute that the fight occurred.
After being contacted by Riverside, LVMPD dispatched Officer Lardomita to the scene. Upon arrival, Officer Lardomita interviewed Armstrong and the Plaintiff. He was informed that Riverside was attempting to investigate the fraudulent use of a player's club card when Plaintiff resisted, causing a disturbance in the casino. Based on this information, Officer Lardomita concluded that probable cause existed that Plaintiff acted disorderly and allowed Armstrong to perform a citizen's arrest of Plaintiff for disorderly conduct. Officer Lardomita then transported Plaintiff to jail. Plaintiff proceeded to a criminal trial for disorderly conduct, but the matter was dismissed.

. . .

The casino was legally justified in interviewing Plaintiff regarding his misuse of the club card and then detaining him after he violently resisted . . . The casino had probable cause to believe that Plaintiff was engaging in a gaming violation. Plaintiff admits to using another player's club card. While he claims he was using the card of an acquaintance, presumably consensually, the casino was justified in investigating whether Plaintiff had obtained the card through fraudulent means. In asking Plaintiff to move to the elevator lobby for questioning by Armstrong and other security personnel, the Riverside employed reasonable means to investigate the potential violation in accordance with the bounds set by § 465. When Plaintiff began to resist and violently attempt to escape, the casino was justified in detaining him for disorderly conduct and further investigation. Nevada law provides that a private person may arrest another "for public offenses committed or attempted in his presence." NRS § 171.126. In this case, Armstrong witnessed Plaintiff's alleged disorderly conduct and was thus justified in performing the citizen's arrest. Because the Riverside had probable cause to believe that Plaintiff broke the law and had legal authority to detain him, Officer Lardomita was justified in believing that Plaintiff committed the crime of disorderly conduct and sanctioning the citizen's arrest....The misuse of a club card at video slots, on the other hand, falls within the purview of traditional gambling and should be governed by the regulations of § 465.

 

[ihate17]

Have you checked your facts?

-What I understand from Grosjean's case is the casino knew he was playing with a convicted card bender. He was holecarding. Holecard play and bent card play would resemble one another closely. The casino jumped the gun and detained for card bending. They easily could have faked the bent cards and Grosjean and Russo would probably still be in prison. They tell the police that Russo is a convicted cheat and his crim record would show it. Again, a beat cop wouldn't know the difference between holecarding and marked carding. Holecarders have been operating well before Grosjean, his legacy, like Uston and Hyland is that he beat the casinos in court.

It is my understanding that Mr Russo was never convicted of cheating but was listed in the Griffin Book as a cardbender. The Griffin book might list you as a cardbender if you played in a different pit than a cardbender but bumped into him when you both were walking down an aisle. The Griffin Book may list you as a cheat if someone in some casino tells them you are a cheat. The Griffin Book is/was worthless because of all the wrong information but dangerous when casinos and gaming take their word for anything.

ihate17

 

[Automatic Monkey]

...Maybe I am too arrogant in my confidence that I can trick a casino goon into violating or not affording me my rights. I sort of long for the day when I can take a casino to court over a human rights or constitutional issue. But that is just me.

You are not arrogant in your confidence that you can get the casino to violate your rights. You can do that.

Your arrogance, or perhaps naivete, is in believing a court in Nevada is there to protect your rights where gaming is concerned. It is not. It is there to protect Nevada, which means protecting the gaming industry.

You will spend time in jail and possibly prison. You will be treated like a criminal all throughout the process. Your name and face will be in the paper and you will face lifetime bans from casinos.

When it comes time to take your shot in civil court, you maybe a convicted felon. You may be bankrupt and using the services of a lawyer who advertises on the sides of buses, who is primarily interested in collecting enough money to cover his fees. You will be an enemy of the state's economy and treated as an enemy by the court. Your opponent in this match will have been there many times before.

Still interested in going into that back room and having God-knows-what planted on you so these scumbags can cover their asses? A month ago I reported that I was menaced by security guards with guns displayed. I contemplated calling the police. Good thing I didn't, for in that same place slightly beforehand a patron was beaten up by the police. Believe us on this, despite your idealism once you arouse the attentions of casino personnel or Nevada peace officers in a casino everything from that point on will be unfair towards you.