callipygian
Well-Known Member
Wasn't this thread 100+ replies yesterday? :laugh:KenSmith said:
I don't think taking a chainsaw to main branches counts as "pruning" any more.
(Thanks, BTW)
Change of Ownership; Trespass Acts still enforced?
- Thread starter callipygian
- Start date
I don't think taking a chainsaw to main branches counts as "pruning" any more.
(Thanks, BTW)
ihate17
Well-Known Member
May not be pruning but the thread got what it needed
Pruning is probably a serious understatement, but I would not have been either surprised or upset if Ken just made this thread disappear. Too much personal stuff, too many nasty shots, and the thread drifted away from the question of the originator.
ihate17
callipygian said:
Pruning is probably a serious understatement, but I would not have been either surprised or upset if Ken just made this thread disappear. Too much personal stuff, too many nasty shots, and the thread drifted away from the question of the originator.
ihate17
Guilty as charged of "pruning" too vigorously. I intentionally deleted a few posts, then accidentally deleted some more. When I was done, what was left didn't make any sense, and if I left it intact it would have created questions of why some posts were left while other equally harmless posts were now missing.
Some people are dangerous with a chainsaw. :grin:
Some people are dangerous with a chainsaw. :grin:
sevencard2003
Well-Known Member
would like to talk to someone in security who can give me advice about lifting old 86s at various casinos, mostly for being broke or getting angry when losing. all of which were 5-15 yrs ago and not recent. also getting in disputes with diff women i hung out with in the past. please send me PMs
UncrownedKing
Well-Known Member
:laugh:shadroch said:
FLASH1296
Well-Known Member
from The Las Vegas Adviser
Question of the Day June 13, 2006
Q: If I were to get read the dreaded "Trespass warning" by say, Harrah's casino security and the Las Vegas cops are NOT involved, would that mean I am barred from all Harrah's-owned casinos or just the ones in Nevada?
A: Interesting question. The trespass warning, reproduced at the end of this answer, can be read to you if you overstay your welcome on any private property, which includes all casinos, where in theory you're simply an invited guest during your stay. If the warning is read to you and you then attempt to re-enter the property, you're liable to be arrested.
To clarify the scope of these bans in the corporate age, we checked with someone we know who's been 86'd (slang for "read the trespass warning") from many a casino. His understanding is that you're barred only from the specific property where the incident takes place.
However, we like to be thorough, so we called Security at Harrah's, MGM Grand, and Orleans, and each time were told, categorically, that a ban in one of their properties applies to the whole group, and that's not just limited to their casinos in Nevada. So if you get banned at the Rio in Las Vegas, according to information from Harrah's security, you cannot play at Bally's Atlantic City, Caesars Indiana, or the Horseshoe Tunica, either.
So which is it? We contacted the Chief Deputy Attorney General for the State of Nevada, in the hope of getting a definitive answer. Here's what he had to say on the subject: "It depends on what's told to the patron when he or she is eighty-sixed. Security could tell someone that he's trespassed from more than one property." But, by extension, if the sweeping nature of the ban is not specified at the time the warning is read, then in theory that person free to enter sister properties unless or until he's read the warning separately there.
Armed with this additional insight, we called another casino at random, the Aladdin, and questioned security there. The extremely helpful source concurred with the Attorney General's office, namely that it depends on what you're told at the time you are trespassed. If the person who reads you the trespass warning merely refers to the property that you're standing in at the time, then that's the only place where the ban applies. However, if you're told that you're also banned from other properties, then you are. So if you're being read the act and the person admimistering doesn't specify, don't ask for clarification about where the ban applies.
This made sense, but still seemed a little vague. So, still in search of the definitive answer on this murky subject, we turned to the Gaming Control Board. Here's what we were told: Some properties have corporate security officers, whose authority stretches across all properties owned by that corporation and who can legitimately effect a group-wide ban. It's up to individual properties to decide how much authority their security officers have.
Still, if the property you're asked to leave is part of a group, the property's representative must name all the properties in the group when he or she reads the trespass warning. If they do and you then enter another property in that group, you can be arrested for trespassing.
Realistically, even if the respresentative doesn't specify the other properties during the barring, it'll be your word against his. If the police get involved, the cops (as cops do in Nevada) are likely to take the side of the casino. The more likely scenario, however, is that you'll simply be read the trespass warning at the second property, and any other property in the group that you subsequently attempt to enter, until you're unambiguously barred from them all. If you make any trouble during the process, expect to be photographed (either with a CCTV or a hand-held camera) and your image circulated among all properties in the group.
Finally, at the recent gaming conference in Lake Tahoe, we had the opportunity to pose this question to Las Vegas attorney Robert Nersesian, currently the lawyer most sought-after by advantage players bringing actions against casinos. What he had to say on the subject generally supported what appears above: "You have to be warned by an authorized representative of the owner. I don't want people relying on what I'm saying here, but I'm pretty confident. Since they [the casinos] have elected to use this multi-entity set-up, where every casino is its own corporation and, in bizarre fits of division, you are now getting subsidiaries within subsidiaries within subsidiaries, where wholly-owned restaurants within properties are their own corporation, and this given casino is its own corporation, while the convention center that is directly attached to the casino is a separate corporation, if you’re eighty-sixed, you've got to be eighty-sixed by a representative of the owner of the property, and [that means] the owner of whichever little part of that property you are on while you are there.
"Let me give an example: I know that Mandalay Corp. owns Mandalay Bay. That's the name of the entity — it's not MGM, it's not Mandalay Resort Group, it's Mandalay Corp. So I have to be warned by an authorized representative of Mandalay Corp. that I’m not allowed on that property. I'm about to argue this very same issue vis à vis Harrah's, where somebody ... who gets a paycheck from Harrah's eighty-sixed someone from Rio Properties Inc., and I don't think that eighty-sixing was valid, because I don't think any authorized representative of the owner ever told this person not to come back.
"But I do want to flip something over. I've heard professional gamblers tell me time and time again, 'I was not formally trespassed.' And what they mean is, 'I was not taken to the back room and had my photograph taken,' or 'I was not formally read the trespass card.' You want to know what a formal trespass is, and this is pretty clear under the statute: If an authorized representative of that casino says, 'Get out and don't ever come back,' it's done. That's a legal full-blown trespass in Nevada – formal, informal, any way you want to say it."
With the opposing sides having a different understanding of the nuances of this rule, we can't provide the final word. But it appears that by the letter of the law, unless specifically stated by an authorized agent, a barring does not stand up beyond the casino at which the event takes place. Unfortunately, the only way to find out for sure might be to take it to court, which could be a costly way of getting the answer if the ruling doesn't go your way.
One slightly positive thing that the GCB agent told us was that these bans generally don't last for life -- they're often lifted after a year. And if you're involved in some altercation that gets you barred and you really want to enter that particular casino again or another casino in the group, he recommended that you ask to meet with the Chief of Security at the property in question and request to have the ban lifted. It's likely that you'll be accommodated. That is, unless you're "a known cheat or thief or vagrant or freeloader or card counter," however, in which case they'll almost certainly decline.
For the record, here's the exact wording of the formal trespass warning:
"As a duly appointed representative of the owner of this property, I hereby warn you that you are trespassing on the property as defined by Nevada Revised Statute 207.200. If you do not leave these premises immediately, you will be subject to arrest for a misdemeanor. Your subsequent return to the premises, after being duly warned not to return, will subject you to immediate arrest for trespassing."
Question of the Day June 13, 2006
Q: If I were to get read the dreaded "Trespass warning" by say, Harrah's casino security and the Las Vegas cops are NOT involved, would that mean I am barred from all Harrah's-owned casinos or just the ones in Nevada?
A: Interesting question. The trespass warning, reproduced at the end of this answer, can be read to you if you overstay your welcome on any private property, which includes all casinos, where in theory you're simply an invited guest during your stay. If the warning is read to you and you then attempt to re-enter the property, you're liable to be arrested.
To clarify the scope of these bans in the corporate age, we checked with someone we know who's been 86'd (slang for "read the trespass warning") from many a casino. His understanding is that you're barred only from the specific property where the incident takes place.
However, we like to be thorough, so we called Security at Harrah's, MGM Grand, and Orleans, and each time were told, categorically, that a ban in one of their properties applies to the whole group, and that's not just limited to their casinos in Nevada. So if you get banned at the Rio in Las Vegas, according to information from Harrah's security, you cannot play at Bally's Atlantic City, Caesars Indiana, or the Horseshoe Tunica, either.
So which is it? We contacted the Chief Deputy Attorney General for the State of Nevada, in the hope of getting a definitive answer. Here's what he had to say on the subject: "It depends on what's told to the patron when he or she is eighty-sixed. Security could tell someone that he's trespassed from more than one property." But, by extension, if the sweeping nature of the ban is not specified at the time the warning is read, then in theory that person free to enter sister properties unless or until he's read the warning separately there.
Armed with this additional insight, we called another casino at random, the Aladdin, and questioned security there. The extremely helpful source concurred with the Attorney General's office, namely that it depends on what you're told at the time you are trespassed. If the person who reads you the trespass warning merely refers to the property that you're standing in at the time, then that's the only place where the ban applies. However, if you're told that you're also banned from other properties, then you are. So if you're being read the act and the person admimistering doesn't specify, don't ask for clarification about where the ban applies.
This made sense, but still seemed a little vague. So, still in search of the definitive answer on this murky subject, we turned to the Gaming Control Board. Here's what we were told: Some properties have corporate security officers, whose authority stretches across all properties owned by that corporation and who can legitimately effect a group-wide ban. It's up to individual properties to decide how much authority their security officers have.
Still, if the property you're asked to leave is part of a group, the property's representative must name all the properties in the group when he or she reads the trespass warning. If they do and you then enter another property in that group, you can be arrested for trespassing.
Realistically, even if the respresentative doesn't specify the other properties during the barring, it'll be your word against his. If the police get involved, the cops (as cops do in Nevada) are likely to take the side of the casino. The more likely scenario, however, is that you'll simply be read the trespass warning at the second property, and any other property in the group that you subsequently attempt to enter, until you're unambiguously barred from them all. If you make any trouble during the process, expect to be photographed (either with a CCTV or a hand-held camera) and your image circulated among all properties in the group.
Finally, at the recent gaming conference in Lake Tahoe, we had the opportunity to pose this question to Las Vegas attorney Robert Nersesian, currently the lawyer most sought-after by advantage players bringing actions against casinos. What he had to say on the subject generally supported what appears above: "You have to be warned by an authorized representative of the owner. I don't want people relying on what I'm saying here, but I'm pretty confident. Since they [the casinos] have elected to use this multi-entity set-up, where every casino is its own corporation and, in bizarre fits of division, you are now getting subsidiaries within subsidiaries within subsidiaries, where wholly-owned restaurants within properties are their own corporation, and this given casino is its own corporation, while the convention center that is directly attached to the casino is a separate corporation, if you’re eighty-sixed, you've got to be eighty-sixed by a representative of the owner of the property, and [that means] the owner of whichever little part of that property you are on while you are there.
"Let me give an example: I know that Mandalay Corp. owns Mandalay Bay. That's the name of the entity — it's not MGM, it's not Mandalay Resort Group, it's Mandalay Corp. So I have to be warned by an authorized representative of Mandalay Corp. that I’m not allowed on that property. I'm about to argue this very same issue vis à vis Harrah's, where somebody ... who gets a paycheck from Harrah's eighty-sixed someone from Rio Properties Inc., and I don't think that eighty-sixing was valid, because I don't think any authorized representative of the owner ever told this person not to come back.
"But I do want to flip something over. I've heard professional gamblers tell me time and time again, 'I was not formally trespassed.' And what they mean is, 'I was not taken to the back room and had my photograph taken,' or 'I was not formally read the trespass card.' You want to know what a formal trespass is, and this is pretty clear under the statute: If an authorized representative of that casino says, 'Get out and don't ever come back,' it's done. That's a legal full-blown trespass in Nevada – formal, informal, any way you want to say it."
With the opposing sides having a different understanding of the nuances of this rule, we can't provide the final word. But it appears that by the letter of the law, unless specifically stated by an authorized agent, a barring does not stand up beyond the casino at which the event takes place. Unfortunately, the only way to find out for sure might be to take it to court, which could be a costly way of getting the answer if the ruling doesn't go your way.
One slightly positive thing that the GCB agent told us was that these bans generally don't last for life -- they're often lifted after a year. And if you're involved in some altercation that gets you barred and you really want to enter that particular casino again or another casino in the group, he recommended that you ask to meet with the Chief of Security at the property in question and request to have the ban lifted. It's likely that you'll be accommodated. That is, unless you're "a known cheat or thief or vagrant or freeloader or card counter," however, in which case they'll almost certainly decline.
For the record, here's the exact wording of the formal trespass warning:
"As a duly appointed representative of the owner of this property, I hereby warn you that you are trespassing on the property as defined by Nevada Revised Statute 207.200. If you do not leave these premises immediately, you will be subject to arrest for a misdemeanor. Your subsequent return to the premises, after being duly warned not to return, will subject you to immediate arrest for trespassing."