Cheating?

[moo321]

Why does everyone think it's totally outrageous that anyone would even suggest that cheating would go on in a casino? Cheating in favor of the house is actually fairly frequent, as a lot of dealers dump chips to someone, and then cheat to make up for it in the hold. I don't think anyone is suggesting that Harrah's is ordering the cheating, but it certainly occurs.

 

[AnIrishmannot2brite]

Why does everyone think it's totally outrageous that anyone would even suggest that cheating would go on in a casino? Cheating in favor of the house is actually fairly frequent, as a lot of dealers dump chips to someone, and then cheat to make up for it in the hold. I don't think anyone is suggesting that Harrah's is ordering the cheating, but it certainly occurs.

And it's a worthy topic. I like your angle on it too.

Why the f wouldn't someone cheat if they knew they could cover for it later?

Bankers watch out for theft in it's various forms: Skimming, embezzlement, missing logs, fraud, passing the buck to another employee, outsiders taking money from insiders.

They've seen 'em all. And what is a casino except a bank with a bar?

So why should good card players feel exempt from being fleeced?

It's where the money is.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Why does everyone think it's totally outrageous that anyone would even suggest that cheating would go on in a casino? Cheating in favor of the house is actually fairly frequent, as a lot of dealers dump chips to someone, and then cheat to make up for it in the hold. I don't think anyone is suggesting that Harrah's is ordering the cheating, but it certainly occurs.

I doubt it's that common these days at all. How much can a dealer dump to an accomplice if he has to call out black and higher payments to his PC all the time? Certainly not enough where it would make a statistically significant effect on the hold. Especially in these big houses, mostly shoe so there is no practicable way to cheat on the deal. The only way a shoe dealer can cheat is mispay and we're going to catch that when it goes against us. Besides, making up for mispays with mispays is only going to increase his chances of getting caught.

The only place I would worry about cheating is in the Indian stores, and in that case there's a pretty good chance the house is in on it. Make sure they spread the cards. But worry more about getting ripped off by another patron, than by the store.

 

[aslan]

..........But worry more about getting ripped off by another patron, than by the store.

Could you elaborate?

 

[avs21]

Why does everyone think it's totally outrageous that anyone would even suggest that cheating would go on in a casino? Cheating in favor of the house is actually fairly frequent, as a lot of dealers dump chips to someone, and then cheat to make up for it in the hold. I don't think anyone is suggesting that Harrah's is ordering the cheating, but it certainly occurs.

I have come across two dealers that I was almost sure they were cheating both games were handheld games. One involved a fake shuffle the other was dealing seconds. Both of the casinos I am almost sure the house wasn't involved. A casino would have way too much to lose for such little gain.

 

[zengrifter]

I have come across two dealers that I was almost sure they were cheating both games were handheld games. One involved a fake shuffle the other was dealing seconds. Both of the casinos I am almost sure the house wasn't involved. A casino would have way too much to lose for such little gain.

Not that uncommon. zg

 

[moo321]

I doubt it's that common these days at all. How much can a dealer dump to an accomplice if he has to call out black and higher payments to his PC all the time? Certainly not enough where it would make a statistically significant effect on the hold. Especially in these big houses, mostly shoe so there is no practicable way to cheat on the deal. The only way a shoe dealer can cheat is mispay and we're going to catch that when it goes against us. Besides, making up for mispays with mispays is only going to increase his chances of getting caught.

The only place I would worry about cheating is in the Indian stores, and in that case there's a pretty good chance the house is in on it. Make sure they spread the cards. But worry more about getting ripped off by another patron, than by the store.

You don't think a dealer could cheat in a shoe game? How about holding out a card and switching it with his hole card? Or using a gaffed shoe to deal seconds? Or stacking the deck? Or selectively rolling his upcard? Or a short shoe with aces missing? Or a shoe with lows added? Or other crap that we haven't heard of or thought of?

I don't think it's fair to dismiss all possibilities of a dealer cheating in a shoe game.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Could you elaborate?

Sure, if someone illicitly takes your money in a casino, chances are very high it's not going to be someone who works there. Chip-grabbers, pickpockets etc. That's something that really does happen a lot.

I saw a craps rail thief team in action once. They had two black girls practically naked working with them as a distraction as they cruised around looking for an opportunity to grab cheques. It was pretty funny.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

You don't think a dealer could cheat in a shoe game? How about holding out a card and switching it with his hole card? Or using a gaffed shoe to deal seconds? Or stacking the deck? Or selectively rolling his upcard? Or a short shoe with aces missing? Or a shoe with lows added? Or other crap that we haven't heard of or thought of?

I don't think it's fair to dismiss all possibilities of a dealer cheating in a shoe game.

Stacked shoes, short shoes, holdout shoes and the like are examples of the house cheating, not the dealer cheating, because the dealer can't do that on his own. Watching them spread and shuffle the cards will eliminate most of that, and no place with a legitimate gaming commission watching over them is going to risk having a cheating device like a gaffed shoe on their premises. Too much to lose for the potential profit.

It's highly unlikely that a dealer is going to be dealing seconds or card-switching from a shoe. One reason is that those cheat techniques require marking the cards before or during play, because just dealing seconds at random isn't going to have any effect on the game. The other reason is that it's near impossible to do with a legit shoe, by design. So watch them spread the cards, and don't worry.

All this talk of cheating around here recently... somebody been having some really bad sessions?

 

[Brock Windsor]

I saw a craps rail thief team in action once. They had two black girls practically naked working with them as a distraction as they cruised around looking for an opportunity to grab cheques. It was pretty funny.

They get caught? I would definitely rat out anyone I saw stealing chips from players.

 

[jimpenn]

Short Shoe

All a casino owner would have to know is when a task force has been scheduled including his house. 25 years ago I knew a bar owner in Fort Lauderdale that received a call every time a liquor control team scheduled to hit his bar. Monkey I also believe casinos operate at the highest levels possible, but as in every industry, there is a certain percentage that will participate in structured criminal activities.

 

[AnIrishmannot2brite]

Stacked shoes, short shoes, holdout shoes and the like are examples of the house cheating, not the dealer cheating, because the dealer can't do that on his own. Watching them spread and shuffle the cards will eliminate most of that, and no place with a legitimate gaming commission watching over them is going to risk having a cheating device like a gaffed shoe on their premises. Too much to lose for the potential profit.

It's highly unlikely that a dealer is going to be dealing seconds or card-switching from a shoe. One reason is that those cheat techniques require marking the cards before or during play, because just dealing seconds at random isn't going to have any effect on the game. The other reason is that it's near impossible to do with a legit shoe, by design. So watch them spread the cards, and don't worry.

All this talk of cheating around here recently... somebody been having some really bad sessions?

Mine happened between relatively good sessions. Didn't last long long as I walked away after losing a lot of small hands. So it isn't "sour grapes" or the like.

I am glad the subject is getting some legitimate discussion. These problems happen wherever there is money stored.

Your neighbor or "best friend" can steal from you. I've had that happen earlier this year myself.

So in casinos, where a lot of people, dealers, pit crew and clientele have drinking and gambling problems is cause for special alarm.

If that sweet and innocent little Asian woman down at your bank is stealing credit card numbers? Well you'd best believe that some theft is likely to go on in a casino!

 

[moo321]

Stacked shoes, short shoes, holdout shoes and the like are examples of the house cheating, not the dealer cheating, because the dealer can't do that on his own. Watching them spread and shuffle the cards will eliminate most of that, and no place with a legitimate gaming commission watching over them is going to risk having a cheating device like a gaffed shoe on their premises. Too much to lose for the potential profit.

It's highly unlikely that a dealer is going to be dealing seconds or card-switching from a shoe. One reason is that those cheat techniques require marking the cards before or during play, because just dealing seconds at random isn't going to have any effect on the game. The other reason is that it's near impossible to do with a legit shoe, by design. So watch them spread the cards, and don't worry.

All this talk of cheating around here recently... somebody been having some really bad sessions?

I've heard of several cases where a crooked dealer got a gaffed shoe into a game without the house knowing. It's quite easy for a skilled card stacker to stack up a shoe as well. If you're not careful with watching how he puts cards into the discard tray, he could do a hi-lo stack on you and do a false shuffle, or set up stacks during the shuffle.

As far as card switching and short or "long" shoes goes, it wouldn't be that hard to get a marked deck, or a modified deck into play. Again, it's simple sleight of hand. He could also have an accomplice nail mark cards, or he could even do it himself. It's not that hard, with a well placed shiner (discard tray at some places), for the dealer to get a look at his own hole card, and once he has done this, you'd never be able to spot the move of a skilled card switcher; the only way to catch it is to catch his eyes on the peek at the hole card.

I'm not saying any of this is easy, or common, but it's quite possible. Bottom line: you should be paranoid. Not to the point of not playing, or losing the count because you're watching the dealer too much. But if you're playing high stakes blackjack, you need to know what to be suspicious of, and you should be willing to leave games because something just doesn't look right.

 

[shadroch]

It's really simple.
Any winning session is because of skill.
Any losing session is because you were cheated.
Hence the rash of posts about cheating.
Doesn't matter that casinos have legal ways to rob you blind,they must be cheating.Otherwise you'd be winning as you took the time to read a book.

Between these threads and Licentias multiple threads,it's no wonder the guys at Arnolds forum hold this place as a bit of a joke.

 

[ihate17]

Dealer cheats and casino cheats, not the same thing

First off: Probably 99% of claims by people that they were cheated in a casino are probably just sour grapes after a big loss. I have both an operations manager and a table game manager in my family and though we kind of stay away from the subject of gaming, the subject of complaint letters has come up. They get tons of letters (most phone calls are diverted to someone who screens the calls) and most of them do not have any merit, in their opinions.
Since most people lose and also play very poorly while thinking they play well, it does not surprise me that facts are not important when angry folks express their frustration at casino management.
So I believe that casinos are honest and dealers are honest, but their have been exceptions.

Dealers cheating you to make up for an earlier time where they cheated the casino is a thing that does happen but it is rare, as is the dealer who has the ability to deal seconds. In this case, the casino did not cheat you, the dealer cheated both you and the casino and the casino actually is more interested in getting this guy.

Casino cheating is also rare. The short shoe, take some aces and faces out and add a couple of extra 5's and 6's, is perhaps the easiest way to do this and the simple way to show your customers that you do not do this is to spread the cards when the decks are changed. I know a casino that does not spread the cards but I believe they do not cheat. I base this on my have counting down enough shoes there to feel that you do not get more positive counts than you should get. I feel they do not spread the cards for the reason that they are greedy and do not want their tables not generating profits while cards are spread. This is stupid on their part, because a percentage of players will think they just might be cheating. Trust is a key asset for any casino.
I know that short shoes have been discovered in Eastern Europe, mainly in the Czech Republic. One California Indian casino was caught about 7 or so years ago. I believe a midwest casino was recently caught, but do not remember where I read that.

In this country I do not worry about a casino having a prism shoe (a few blackjack books have phots of them for ID). It is also doubtful that if a casino decided to cheat, that the dealers would be in on it or know it. Dealers move around, dealers will talk to friends and family, dealers could just not be really trusted enough to be informed and also would require quite a bit of extra compensation to do this. This is another reason not to worry much about a prism shoe, as I do not believe the dealer will be bringing his own shoe to the game.

Casinos do worry about dealer cheats. The dealer can steal more from the casino than he can from the players. Look at it this way, if he steals from you, it goes into the rack. If he steals from the casino, it finds its way into his pocket. If a dealer is cheating a customer, the first thing the casino will think is that he must also be cheating us. Not for any real love of the customer, but because of similar interests, both you and the casino are most likely allies in this situation.

ihate17

 

[AnIrishmannot2brite]

I really think the matter deserved some discussion. The input has been interesting and it needs to be discussed.

Thought I framed my first statement in such a way that no "Sour grapes" type replies would be inferred and no pissy replies posted. Guess not. Indeed the outing I had was a profitable one despite being "shortchanged" for the trifle. So my credibility ought to gain a little from the matter.

What I learned from this discussion is to not enter a shoe without seeing the cards, watch a fast dealer's eyes and to leave a table after a long string of losses. At least in a neutral count and maybe high. No harm could happen from that.

And I may stay away from dealers who are just too fast for their own good.

 

[moo321]

It's really simple.
Any winning session is because of skill.
Any losing session is because you were cheated.
Hence the rash of posts about cheating.
Doesn't matter that casinos have legal ways to rob you blind,they must be cheating.Otherwise you'd be winning as you took the time to read a book.

Between these threads and Licentias multiple threads,it's no wonder the guys at Arnolds forum hold this place as a bit of a joke.

No one is even arguing that there is significant house cheating going on, if you actually read the thread we were talking about dealers cheating on their own. And there have been several cases of confirmed cheating, particularly at Indian casinos, in the last few years.

 

[AnIrishmannot2brite]

No one is even arguing that there is significant house cheating going on, if you actually read the thread we were talking about dealers cheating on their own. And there have been several cases of confirmed cheating, particularly at Indian casinos, in the last few years.

Exactly.

And I for one don't want to risk a large bet on a dealer who was able to fleece me.

Look at what COULD have happened: Instead of dealing himself face up high cards for over a dozen hands on my five dollar bets the dealer could have let me win or break even for a while.

So I'd either dump more of the former house money plus a little of my own to be skimmed later on. Or I'd have raised my bet when the TC went up.

In either case as soon as the dealer sees bigger chips he takes all my money. As it was I learned a lesson without getting hurt.

It's a simple lesson and easily described:

1. Unless you're very experienced and know sleight of hand dealer techniques stay away from an especially fast dealer.

2. Examine all cards put in the shoe before playing or back counting.

3. Leave any tables where you're losing hands at a rate well above the statistical variance.


No how could anyone go wrong with the above ideas? It's just common sense.


And even if the losses described in number 3 were mere statistical variance why stay at a table where you're losing? Take a break and come back with a better mind set. That's what i did after "Speedy" got the boot. Things went remarkably well after that. Even Sharon made a killing at video poker.

 

[shadroch]

And even if the losses described in number 3 were mere statistical variance why stay at a table where you're losing? Take a break and come back with a better mind set. That's what i did after "Speedy" got the boot. Things went remarkably well after that. Even Sharon made a killing at video poker.[/QUOTE]


Do you realize how idiotic your last statement is? Sadly,I think you really believe that.

 

[AnIrishmannot2brite]

You're a troll and an a-hole Shadroch. All you bring to the discussion is a cocky attitude and pessimism. I've given you notice about your impolite BS on the forum before and now I'm bringing the ax down:

As far as I'm concerned you don't exist. The best way to treat any schit head.

We need you about as much as a hard sixteen against dealer's ten.