Cheating?

[ColorMeUp]

You're a troll and an a-hole Shadroch. All you bring to the discussion is a cocky attitude and pessimism. I've given you notice about your impolite BS on the forum before and now I'm bringing the ax down:

As far as I'm concerned you don't exist. The best way to treat any schit head.

We need you about as much as a hard sixteen against dealer's ten.

I disagree. I think shad is being pretty realistic about your experience.

The likelyhood that you actually experienced a cheat is very very small. Do you really think the house would have him there to cheat players, then pull him out and send him home after you make a comment like "I'm not playing this table since you're beating me" ? No way. Do you think even if he was cheating, he'd be cheating at a $5 table? No. The list goes on and on. It's way more likely you just experienced a statistical variance than cheated.

 

[aslan]

I disagree. I think shad is being pretty realistic about your experience.

The likelyhood that you actually experienced a cheat is very very small. Do you really think the house would have him there to cheat players, then pull him out and send him home after you make a comment like "I'm not playing this table since you're beating me" ? No way. Do you think even if he was cheating, he'd be cheating at a $5 table? No. The list goes on and on. It's way more likely you just experienced a statistical variance than cheated.

Irish, don't overreact. I relish frank, straight to the point criticism, although it is hurtful to my pride. In all my years of gambling, I have experienced times when, if I didn't know better for sure, I'd have to believe that I was cheated. Truth is often stranger than fiction. It is possible to get beat by a higher straight flush, even if it is statistically highly improbable and may not happen in one hundred people's lifetimes. What you described is something I have experienced. How is it possible that everytime I have twenty, the dealer has twenty-one. Every time the dealer hits a stiff, he makes a hand. Every time he has a ten up, he has a ten down. Every time there is a blackjack, it's a dealer blackjack. Every time I hit a twelve, I bust. Every time I hit eleven double down, I get an ace or a deuce. I could go on and on. Sometimes it happens like this for what seems an eternity. On top of that, put a wise ass dealer who pretends to be more than he is. Instead of simply a dealer of random cards, he mimics a mechanic who has God-like control over the cards he dispenses. He busts the board with seemingly murderous intent. He is fancy and slings the cards like houdini. He is fast and appears to be in total control. He is after all just a minimum wage donkey who gets his kicks terrorizing players. You luck is running so bad, and he makes it easy to believe his unspoken pitch. 999 out of 1,000 times, it's just bad kuck, Irish, compounded by a freak dealer you love to hate. Shad has helped a lot of people here in the forum. Sometimes we all got too outspoken. His perspective is from a lot more experience at bj than I have. The truth is he's usually right, but if you feel insulted, I can understand that.

 

[AnIrishmannot2brite]

I disagree. I think shad is being pretty realistic about your experience.

The likelyhood that you actually experienced a cheat is very very small. Do you really think the house would have him there to cheat players, then pull him out and send him home after you make a comment like "I'm not playing this table since you're beating me" ? No way. Do you think even if he was cheating, he'd be cheating at a $5 table? No. The list goes on and on. It's way more likely you just experienced a statistical variance than cheated.

The less said about shadrock the better. I seldom bring disputes into a public forum except when addressing the cockiest trolls around.

Or if I feel like it. Generally doesn't happen too often. Continuing to dispute with a troll makes any forum go south.

But since you asked: Shadroch is putting words into my mouth (typical troll). I have not suggested that cheating is common. Only that it seems in my mind to have occurred last week. Or that the possibility of it having happened was increased.

14 out of 15 tens or aces in a row for dealers up card is highly unusual.

Beyond the facts this is an important subject for REASONABLE people.

We've all seen theft occur. I had two gold watches and a handgun STOLEN from me by my neighbor down the street. Happened just this year. Got my gun back but not the watches.

So obviously thievery is part of human nature. I'd like to think it was less common but even people of above average character will steal if serious need and opportunity coexist. A quick move to switch a dealer's up card to ten on a hundred buck bet nets two hundred dollars a minute.

Now you're talking money. How does a dealer test himself out on his tricks?

Against a low wagering player who isn't watching his eye/hands...

It's the same way we learn our skills. I stay away from the fifty dollar min tables. I have no business there as it would max out my units just by sitting down at the table.

So our "Speedy Gonzales" dealer could be in the process of "graduating" to the next level.

And even if it was purely a negative variance (which would happen maybe twice a year in heavy play)? So what? We're all a little more careful about putting big bucks down against a "David Copperfield" dealer.

Wisdom can't hurt anyone.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

I disagree. I think shad is being pretty realistic about your experience.

The likelyhood that you actually experienced a cheat is very very small. Do you really think the house would have him there to cheat players, then pull him out and send him home after you make a comment like "I'm not playing this table since you're beating me" ? No way. Do you think even if he was cheating, he'd be cheating at a $5 table? No. The list goes on and on. It's way more likely you just experienced a statistical variance than cheated.

I prefer to avoid words like "idiotic" but it's true that we can't accurately analyze anything empirically in this game. This is why I'm not a believer in keeping records of results. It's too easy to deceive yourself into believing that you are a better/worse player than you are, or of suspecting things like cheating.

My last session it seemed like the dealer was pulling 20's and 21's out of her a-hole on every hand, on high counts. I always pretend I think I'm being cheated, but it was so bad that it would have been easy to not pretend too. But I walked out with my session EV nonetheless, remembering so much loss that I cannot imagine how that could have been a winning session. That's BJ for you. Never substitute your judgment for sound theory.

 

[AnIrishmannot2brite]

I prefer to avoid words like "idiotic" but it's true that we can't accurately analyze anything empirically in this game. This is why I'm not a believer in keeping records of results. It's too easy to deceive yourself into believing that you are a better/worse player than you are, or of suspecting things like cheating.

My last session it seemed like the dealer was pulling 20's and 21's out of her a-hole on every hand, on high counts. I always pretend I think I'm being cheated, but it was so bad that it would have been easy to not pretend too. But I walked out with my session EV nonetheless, remembering so much loss that I cannot imagine how that could have been a winning session. That's BJ for you. Never substitute your judgment for sound theory.

"Never substitute your judgment for sound theory" No one is saying that here.

Now I'll grant that threads about "cheating" will draw attention like naked pictures of Lindsey Lohan drunk on the couch. And some caution is advised at blaming the dealer vs. ordinary negative variation.

Look at all the friggin responses to this thread and another two or so sprouted up the same day. So I'll agree that there exists the tendency to see "Communists behind every bush" (saying from the 1950's) when it comes to dealer and casino issues.

However in my spare time just today I played far more practice hands than Friday night when I viewed the 14 out of 15 dealer high up cards. In fact I've never seen the strategy trainer deal me 14 out of 15 losses. Either at the start of play or anywhere else. All in the two years I've fiddled with it.

I've gone 0 for 9 a few times. Even played a whole shoe with a 29% win average NOT including pushes.

So i declare that I'm wise to consider the possibility of not only the above mentioned anonymous dealer as a suspect in cheating. But... But to be on the lookout for these dealers whenever i raise my bet. Or when the pit crew sends in the iceman to cool me off after a plus streak.

 

[aslan]

14 out of 15 tens or aces in a row for dealers up card is highly unusual.

If that's all it takes, I have been cheated repeatedly. Honest, Irish. I too have mentally told myself, "How is it that when the dealer gets a ten it is always the upcard!" And, "How come the dealer gets tens twice as often as everybody else. It's unreal!" But these things happen naturally in the course of playing over time, unless you and I are the only victims.

A quick move to switch a dealer's up card to ten on a hundred buck bet nets two hundred dollars a minute.

Your supposition would mean the house is in on it, or else the "eye" is not doing its job. The dealer should be reviewed periodically by the "eye." There should be occasions when the dealer is evaluated, either for quality control, or in the course of analyzing a player upon request or due to general "eye" surveillance. All is on tape, and it is hard to believe that this dealer's tapes are never reviewed. My point is that there is less likelihood that dealers are cheating customers if the house is in on it, because this is unlikely house behavior. You can always report your suspicion to the house, and if they are not in on it, they will quickly discover the truth. I wonder if there could be something in it for you, if that turns out to be the case.

 

[ihate17]

Play long enough and everything and anything can happen

I have gotten 7 aces in a row on the same hand, splitting to 4 hands and getting an ace on the first 3.

I have lost over 20 straight hands 5 different times, not counting splits or doubles as more than a single hand. In none of these cases did I have any reason to believe I was cheated and in all cases I have also had good sessions at these same casinos.

I have played a whole shoe without winning a hand, and then played the next shoe and perhaps lost 3 hands.

I have played a whole shoe and only lost one hand.

Point is, strange things happen on the blackjack tables and just because they are statistically abnormal, does not mean you are cheated.

ihate17

 

[AnIrishmannot2brite]

I have gotten 7 aces in a row on the same hand, splitting to 4 hands and getting an ace on the first 3.

I have lost over 20 straight hands 5 different times, not counting splits or doubles as more than a single hand. In none of these cases did I have any reason to believe I was cheated and in all cases I have also had good sessions at these same casinos.

I have played a whole shoe without winning a hand, and then played the next shoe and perhaps lost 3 hands.

I have played a whole shoe and only lost one hand.

Point is, strange things happen on the blackjack tables and just because they are statistically abnormal, does not mean you are cheated.

ihate17

Agreed. I just am taking my recent experience as a wake up call.

A whole shoe without winning?

That's about as likely as winning the lottery three Friday's in row. I do know a woman who won the state lottery three different times. Each for significant six figures.

 

[Kasi]

14 out of 15 tens or aces in a row for dealers up card is highly unusual.

So how "highly unusual" does an event have to be before you're pretty sure you were cheated?

How unusual do you view the event of dealer getting 10 or Ace 14 out of 15 times?

Is that even the event you're picking on or is it losing 14 out out of 15 hands as I think you say somewhere else?

Or is it "I lost 14 times given the dealer had an Ace or a 10"?

Anyway, I doubt you were even close to being cheated. Just an opinion.

If you really care, log 1000 of Speedy's upcards. Or log results against people betting more than $5, etc.

 

[Kasi]

...it's true that we can't accurately analyze anything empirically in this game.

Well I'm sure you're not surprised I'd have to disagree a little with that statement

OK, alot lol.

OK - I think everything in this game can be accurately empirically analyzed lol.

 

[aslan]

So how "highly unusual" does an event have to be before you're pretty sure you were cheated?

How unusual do you view the event of dealer getting 10 or Ace 14 out of 15 times?

Is that even the event you're picking on or is it losing 14 out out of 15 hands as I think you say somewhere else?

Or is it "I lost 14 times given the dealer had an Ace or a 10"?

Anyway, I doubt you were even close to being cheated. Just an opinion.

If you really care, log 1000 of Speedy's upcards. Or log results against people betting more than $5, etc.

I will suspend my belief of winning in the long run if I lose repeatedly with the same dealer or casino. I can't tell you how much I have to lose to come to this decision. I won't assume I am being cheated either. There are things possible that science cannot account for. Let's just leave it at that. The only time (other than knowing the reputation of the dealer or his associates) I will suspect cheating is if I see something that looks like cheating, not the results of a game mind you, but something in the playing itself, like the dealer's grip on the cards, a gesture that is out of context or looks too much like a magician (if you know what I mean), or the obvious running up of cards in a poker game, or a dealer or player picking up cards in a special order in a poker game, or bent cards, stuff like that. Believe me, no matter how much you have been exposed to knowledge in this regard, there is someone out there who can do something to you that you have never seen before. For example, there was a dealer in Vegas who could "run up" the cards with a butt to butt interlacing shuffle. That's not detectable. Also, I know someone who got ripped in a private game through the use of a "hold out" table. The table itself had a gizmo that could hide cards and produce them whenever the cheater wanted them. He lost his life savings. My advice is to always play in large , respectable casinos. Even then, if you never seem to win, go elsewhere.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Well I'm sure you're not surprised I'd have to disagree a little with that statement

OK, alot lol.

OK - I think everything in this game can be accurately empirically analyzed lol.

It's carefully worded- "we,", meaning that we when we're playing at the table cannot use empiricism. But we've let our computers do that for billions of hands before we enter the casino.

So you're right that it can be done empirically, just not using our experiences at the table.

 

[Kasi]

I will suspend my belief of winning in the long run if I lose repeatedly with the same dealer or casino. I can't tell you how much I have to lose to come to this decision. I won't assume I am being cheated either.

Sounds reasonable to me. If any doubts, run.

But accusing a dealer of cheating after 15 hands because he deals fast and wins a few hands is what I find fairly unreasonable.

 

[shadroch]

Sounds reasonable to me. If any doubts, run.

But accusing a dealer of cheating after 15 hands because he deals fast and wins a few hands is what I find fairly unreasonable.

But he had to have been cheating because after that dealer left,the poster started to win.As did his girlfriend who was playing video poker. What more proof could you possibly ask for? I think you are a shill for the casinos.:devil:

 

[Kasi]

But he had to have been cheating because after that dealer left,the poster started to win.As did his girlfriend who was playing video poker. What more proof could you possibly ask for? I think you are a shill for the casinos.:devil:

Be nice now :grin:

How did you know I own only 6 casinos in Vegas not counting a few dozen more around the country?!

Clearly, it wasn't the girlfriend that convinced me, because that's too obvious to even mention, it was the fact the dealer was practicing for high-rollers on $5 min betters and somehow pocketing the excess profits from his skill while waiting for the "big score".

Which is why I just fired Speedy for not sharing any with the house.

So he's safe now from ever being cheated again.

 

[rdorange]

Devil's advocate

Let me play devil's advocate here for just a moment. When you lost a string of hands, you thought you had been "cheated". What if you had won a sting of hands? Do you think the dealers are saying, "he is cheating!" And would you have thought it unusual for you to have won that many hands that way (with lousy carsds and perfect hits, 20 to 21).

Think about what Ihate17 said, "I have played a whole shoe without winning a hand, and then played the next shoe and perhaps lost 3 hands. I have played a whole shoe and only lost one hand." Somebody probably thought he was cheating.

In Bj there are long strings of neg cards, you just experienced one of many yet to come!

The point is, yes some dealers can and will cheat, but most will not cheat at work for two reasons. First, it is not worth it to cheat you because they do not get the money they beat you out of. If you lose to him, it goes to the casino. Second, it is not worth losing his job over for such small stakes. If the dealer wants to cheat anybody, he wants to cheat the BIG money, the casino.

The casino is not voluntarily nor willingly going to allow him to cheat because they make too much money legally/fairly to risk it over such a little thing as a bettor that is not a whale!

This is not meant in a mean way, or to say you weren't cheated, but it just may have "appeared" that way.

 

[EasyRhino]

In shoe games, the house can go quite a while between changing cards. Unless you know the time that they do the card changes and get there in advance, it's not practical to expect to see the cards before you start playing.

 

[ihate17]

the situation

In shoe games, the house can go quite a while between changing cards. Unless you know the time that they do the card changes and get there in advance, it's not practical to expect to see the cards before you start playing.

True, shoe game cards are often changed once a day, sometimes once a shift.
The key to me is not exactly seeing the cards spread myself, but they be publicly spread, even if the dealer is the only one seeing them. Shorting of decks is not the kind of cheating that you would include all your dealers in. That would open the door to blackmail, extortion and just the odds of several dealers telling other people about what is going on.
So as long as the dealer spreads them I am happy.
Places where a pit comes out with a pre-shuffled stack of 6 decks, foolsihly subject themselves to questioning even if they are perfectly honest.

ihate17

 

[Kasi]

So .. it can be done empirically, just not using our experiences at the table.

I guess I kinda knew that's what you meant lol. Maybe what struck me more was your apparent strong belief in the uselessness of recording results at the table after the fact.

Of course analyzing them would never be "accurate", since alot of the recording might be estimates, but I would think , still, better than nothing. Especially as the years go by lol.

No point here I guess. Just found it interesting to see reasons why someone is philosophically opposed to keeping records as a matter of principle.

Each to his own and, as always, may the cards be with you!

 

[SilentBob420BMFJ]

Sure, if someone illicitly takes your money in a casino, chances are very high it's not going to be someone who works there. Chip-grabbers, pickpockets etc. That's something that really does happen a lot.

I saw a craps rail thief team in action once. They had two black girls practically naked working with them as a distraction as they cruised around looking for an opportunity to grab cheques. It was pretty funny.

i always wonder if i should leave my stacks of reds on the table when i leave for a few minutes..

It's really simple.
Any winning session is because of skill.
Any losing session is because you were cheated.
Hence the rash of posts about cheating.
Doesn't matter that casinos have legal ways to rob you blind,they must be cheating.Otherwise you'd be winning as you took the time to read a book.

Between these threads and Licentias multiple threads,it's no wonder the guys at Arnolds forum hold this place as a bit of a joke.

i think most of the accusations of cheating, and the subject of cheating, is somewhat ploppy logic, especially if you are basing it on your results at the table, which is most likely selective memory anyways

What I learned from this discussion is to not enter a shoe without seeing the cards, watch a fast dealer's eyes and to leave a table after a long string of losses. At least in a neutral count and maybe high. No harm could happen from that.

And I may stay away from dealers who are just too fast for their own good.

1. Unless you're very experienced and know sleight of hand dealer techniques stay away from an especially fast dealer.

2. Examine all cards put in the shoe before playing or back counting.

3. Leave any tables where you're losing hands at a rate well above the statistical variance.


No how could anyone go wrong with the above ideas? It's just common sense.


And even if the losses described in number 3 were mere statistical variance why stay at a table where you're losing? Take a break and come back with a better mind set. That's what i did after "Speedy" got the boot. Things went remarkably well after that. Even Sharon made a killing at video poker.

cards are rarely changed, ive seen cards spread once or twice in my 200+ hours of blackjack, and never at the table i was playing at.. i think they should spread them every hour.. fast dealers = more money.. leaving the table after a string of losses is ploppy logic

You're a troll and an a-hole Shadroch. All you bring to the discussion is a cocky attitude and pessimism. I've given you notice about your impolite BS on the forum before and now I'm bringing the ax down:

As far as I'm concerned you don't exist. The best way to treat any schit head.

We need you about as much as a hard sixteen against dealer's ten.

CLAPS VERY LOUDLY

I disagree. I think shad is being pretty realistic about your experience.

The likelyhood that you actually experienced a cheat is very very small. Do you really think the house would have him there to cheat players, then pull him out and send him home after you make a comment like "I'm not playing this table since you're beating me" ? No way. Do you think even if he was cheating, he'd be cheating at a $5 table? No. The list goes on and on. It's way more likely you just experienced a statistical variance than cheated.

correcting somebody is fine, saying somebody is wrong is fine, but flat out throwing insults left and right like your the king of assholes is not fine, and makes people pay attention to the insult, not the fact that they are right

Shadroch is putting words into my mouth (typical troll).

ya, im always correcting him and a few others on here who seem to do that.. when somebody doesnt like someone for whatever reason, they look for them to say dumb things, so when they read your post, their brain will insert things that arent there, just so they can insult you.. yes, when i read a few peoples posts on here, i do expect them to be right/wrong, but i still read them carefully

However in my spare time just today I played far more practice hands than Friday night when I viewed the 14 out of 15 dealer high up cards. In fact I've never seen the strategy trainer deal me 14 out of 15 losses. Either at the start of play or anywhere else. All in the two years I've fiddled with it.

I've gone 0 for 9 a few times. Even played a whole shoe with a 29% win average NOT including pushes.

So i declare that I'm wise to consider the possibility of not only the above mentioned anonymous dealer as a suspect in cheating. But... But to be on the lookout for these dealers whenever i raise my bet. Or when the pit crew sends in the iceman to cool me off after a plus streak.

irish, i think that you are too paranoid, and dont understand that 14 out of 15 tens+aces is not extremely rare, and going an entire shoe winning 30% of your hands is closer to common than rare i would say, but the important thing is not if something is rare, but is it so rare its cheating? i would say you would have to witness several 1 in millions events before suspecting cheating, but that is just an estimate.. i never suspect cheating, ever, and honestly, i think that to never assume cheating is better to be paranoid, as being paranoid takes away from other things, and makes you go crazy.. if your going to suspect cheating, dont do it from results of your hands..

Think about what Ihate17 said, "I have played a whole shoe without winning a hand, and then played the next shoe and perhaps lost 3 hands. I have played a whole shoe and only lost one hand." Somebody probably thought he was cheating.

In Bj there are long strings of neg cards, you just experienced one of many yet to come!

The point is, yes some dealers can and will cheat, but most will not cheat at work for two reasons. First, it is not worth it to cheat you because they do not get the money they beat you out of. If you lose to him, it goes to the casino. Second, it is not worth losing his job over for such small stakes. If the dealer wants to cheat anybody, he wants to cheat the BIG money, the casino.

The casino is not voluntarily nor willingly going to allow him to cheat because they make too much money legally/fairly to risk it over such a little thing as a bettor that is not a whale!

This is not meant in a mean way, or to say you weren't cheated, but it just may have "appeared" that way.

exactly