Continuous shuffle machines
- Thread starter davidpom
- Start date
Wow, a complex exercise indeed to remember the magical clumps of cards... but what I don't understand is this: the device is a random shuffler. Those cards might go into the shuffler together, but they will be shuffled into different spots. The middle of the One2Six unit is a big spinner holding cards, and the way in which it spins is controlled by a random algorithm... on that basis I would have thought the chances of any cards going in together ending up anywhere near each other is pretty slim statistically.
la_dee_daa
Well-Known Member
Elhombre said:
the device is a random shuffler.
davidpom------ device and reallity often differ, someone must prove,
its not easy and you could create over the time something like a seventh sence for combinations of cards.
My question ,I would like more special things about this CSM, at the end of the day they open the shuffler and I can look inside, but that's not enough.
The best would be to watch the open CSM when it shuffles. Do you have such opportunities ?
Or to own such a machine.
regards rainer
davidpom------ device and reallity often differ, someone must prove,
its not easy and you could create over the time something like a seventh sence for combinations of cards.
My question ,I would like more special things about this CSM, at the end of the day they open the shuffler and I can look inside, but that's not enough.
The best would be to watch the open CSM when it shuffles. Do you have such opportunities ?
Or to own such a machine.
regards rainer
ihate17
Well-Known Member
Been away (playing blackjack)
Yes there are only 16 2's as you stated in your 4 decks in the CSM but that means nothing! Can 20 2's be dealt out in a total amount of hands that might equal a 4 deck shoe when using a CSM? Because the cards are constantly being put back into the CSM the answer is yes. In a rare case maybe 30 2's could be dealt in that period of time, perhaps even more. Now can more than 16 2's EVER be dealt from a regular 4 deck show? Not without some sort of cheating or mistake.
Pure apples and oranges unless they are doing stuff like dealing out 3 decks before putting the cards back into the CSM, which I doubt. If they are putting them back every hand or two, you mathematically, have a near infinate stack of cards and not 4 decks, even though there are only 4 decks in play.
Check my past posts for some tidbits on my being barred and avoiding barrings. More than that I will not give you because I still suspect you might be a casino shill.
ihate17
ihate17
I do not know if anyone else replied to this but will do so before reading the rest of this thread.davidpom said:
Yes there are only 16 2's as you stated in your 4 decks in the CSM but that means nothing! Can 20 2's be dealt out in a total amount of hands that might equal a 4 deck shoe when using a CSM? Because the cards are constantly being put back into the CSM the answer is yes. In a rare case maybe 30 2's could be dealt in that period of time, perhaps even more. Now can more than 16 2's EVER be dealt from a regular 4 deck show? Not without some sort of cheating or mistake.
Pure apples and oranges unless they are doing stuff like dealing out 3 decks before putting the cards back into the CSM, which I doubt. If they are putting them back every hand or two, you mathematically, have a near infinate stack of cards and not 4 decks, even though there are only 4 decks in play.
Check my past posts for some tidbits on my being barred and avoiding barrings. More than that I will not give you because I still suspect you might be a casino shill.
ihate17
ihate17
ihate17
Well-Known Member
Yes but he is an advantage player?
Hell you might get a 4 deck period of time where 30 aces come out and there are tons of blackjacks though I do recognize that over time it will all even out (again somewhere approaching infinity but not quite there)
ihate17
I stated near infinite because you are dealing about 20 cards to a full table out of a total of 208 and then putting them back into the machine. As I said to the original poster using one of his examples: you can not get dealt more than 16 2's from a 4 deck shoe but in the same amount of hands that it would take to deal out a complete 4 deck shoe but using a CSM you could get many more or many less 2's than 16. So as you say for a BS player, where decisions are not composite dependent, it might make no difference but it is still very very far from the same thing.Kasi said:
Hell you might get a 4 deck period of time where 30 aces come out and there are tons of blackjacks though I do recognize that over time it will all even out (again somewhere approaching infinity but not quite there)
ihate17
Hi, for the record I can assure you (and other forum readers) that I AM NOT a casino shill. I'm a player. I go to a casino to get money, sure, but I am NOT on their payroll. I take it fairly through advantage play.ihate17 said:
Who would want to work for dollars an hour with smoke blowing in your face all day, standing up, and taking abuse from the public? Not me. I'm happy sitting down, playing games, and winning much more an hour on average than the normal average wage. I can't stomach that for a full 8 hours a day, sure, but I'm happy with the 10-12 hours I spend in a casino each week.
so rest assured, I'm a player like 99% of the others here. SHILL FREE ZONE.
And therein lies my original argument - when it "evens out" it's going to be awfully close to a 4-deck game average I would think.ihate17 said:
Anyway, it's been a good debate. I'm happy to agree to differ on this.
We both have our opinions on this, neither is right nor wrong (I think). Thanks for the discussion though - it's good for all of us to look at things from different angles with a view to helping our individual playing styles.
aslan
Well-Known Member
I don't understand your logic. If it is approaching infinity, how can you say it is close to a 4-deck game average? The two are hardly identical.davidpom said:And therein lies my original argument - when it "evens out" it's going to be awfully close to a 4-deck game average I would think.
Anyway, it's been a good debate. I'm happy to agree to differ on this.
EasyRhino
Well-Known Member
Wait, I thought that, if you had, say, four decks loaded into a CSM, and it was reloaded every round, then it would be the equivalent of playing a four-deck game, freshly shuffled and "off the top" every round.
So the house edge would be equivalent to playing a regular 4 deck game (but faster, no breaks for shuffles). Not an infinite-deck game, which would have a higher house edge.
So the house edge would be equivalent to playing a regular 4 deck game (but faster, no breaks for shuffles). Not an infinite-deck game, which would have a higher house edge.
ihate17
Well-Known Member
conceed
Yes, I finally agree it is a 4 deck game, with only the cut card effect making an insignificant difference for the BS player.
My problem is that I never think like a BS player and any blackjack game without a floating edge ( count going up and down and along with it the casino or player edge) is like shuffle the shoe, deal one hand and shuffle again, so you never will know if you have an edge on a hand.
ihate17
Yes, I finally agree it is a 4 deck game, with only the cut card effect making an insignificant difference for the BS player.
My problem is that I never think like a BS player and any blackjack game without a floating edge ( count going up and down and along with it the casino or player edge) is like shuffle the shoe, deal one hand and shuffle again, so you never will know if you have an edge on a hand.
ihate17
If ihate17 can come around lol, appreciate the open mind by the way ihate17, so can you in case you are in doubt. Which you might not be lol. But, just in case you are not sure, or Davidpom is not sure, a 4 deck CSM is the mathematical equivalent of a 4 deck shoe. Same HA. Not close. Identical.aslan said:
It is not approaching infinity. It's 4 decks. Simple. I think so anyway lol.
But, just in case anyone here actually is a BS player, or even a sometimes-BS player but is too ashamed to admit it here lol, the CSM will have a lower HA for you compared to the same 4-deck game with a cut-card.
Which, you know, kind of flies in the face of the traditional disdain, seemingly borne perhaps sometimes out of some sense of "superiority", of AP's toward ploppies playing CSM's instead of shoes and thereby legitimizing them and, perhaps, reducing the other games counters think they love. But maybe, after all, while ploppies, they are perhaps smarter ploppies and should be given credit for preferring CSM's over shoes after all.
Yeah, I know, there's still the more hands per hour thing. It can often be favorably dealt with.
Tough getting respect as a ploppy for finding the best game available so he will have the best chance of winning money or losing less over some period of time. Oh, wait, is that an exclusive-AP sort of thing lol?
Well i went back through this whole thread thinking maybe I offended you somewhere somehow but I didn't see anything lol.Canceler said:
So I'm not exactly sure what you meant but, what with the smiley-face and all, apparently you liked being whipped lol.
If so, I completely understand. As I used to often tell this absolutely dead-drop beautiful blonde with a national ranking and a backhand passing shot down the line like you wouldn't believe, this is tennis btw, and she would just kick my ass, and I actually was pretty good, lol,
"Beat me again Baby."
She'd oblige and I confess I loved it every time.
Oops, sorry...
Kasi -
All I meant was that you carefully and precisely made the point that the 4D shoe and the 4D CSM were the same, and then in the next breath said they were different.
After thinking about it some more, maybe I see your point, though. The two are the same while they're just sitting there on the table. When you actually start to play, however, the cut card effect comes into play with the shoe, but not the CSM. That's my wild guess as to your meaning, anyway.
Whiplash is the neck injury you get when your head changes direction too fast.
Kasi -
All I meant was that you carefully and precisely made the point that the 4D shoe and the 4D CSM were the same, and then in the next breath said they were different.
After thinking about it some more, maybe I see your point, though. The two are the same while they're just sitting there on the table. When you actually start to play, however, the cut card effect comes into play with the shoe, but not the CSM. That's my wild guess as to your meaning, anyway.
Whiplash is the neck injury you get when your head changes direction too fast.
Got ya lol. Since I've made the same point a few times in the past, by now, your neck should really be hurting lol.Canceler said:
And I like the analogy. Never thought of it that way. But I guess that pretty much sums it up lol.
Like ihate17 said, it's a small effect and I wouldn't really worry about it much from a practical point of view. Small but real.
Basically, I think, it means the dealer deals an extra hand every once in a while, compared to the average number of hands he would normally deal, because alot of high cards have already come out in that situation so there fore the BS player is playing a worse hand than he normally would be if the normal number of hands had occurred before the cut card.
Since even I barely understood that, to get a better understanding of it, google it lol.
zengrifter
Banned
Where the hell is that bloody english bloke, David Pom? zg
I'm here
Hi Zen, I'm here! I've been keeping a watchful eye on the developments in the thread - most enlightening. It seems we've reached some logical conclusion in the discussions - and also that a lot of good debate has been had on both sides. That's a good thing - it helps us all to play better.
For the record, despite my user name, I'm not english / british. I did live there for a few years though - but once they barred me from my revenue stream I chose to live elsewhere.
Hi Zen, I'm here! I've been keeping a watchful eye on the developments in the thread - most enlightening. It seems we've reached some logical conclusion in the discussions - and also that a lot of good debate has been had on both sides. That's a good thing - it helps us all to play better.
For the record, despite my user name, I'm not english / british. I did live there for a few years though - but once they barred me from my revenue stream I chose to live elsewhere.
BlackChipBlackJack
Member
i thought you worked fulltime and just gambled part time... i sure as hell wouldnt move for losing a 12k a year job loldavidpom said:For the record, despite my user name, I'm not english / british. I did live there for a few years though - but once they barred me from my revenue stream I chose to live elsewhere.