CSM - Can fed in cards be dealt right away?

[taipafan]

Cards insert is not at random.
Ace tracking is possible.
Some hints:
For 6 decks, when a card is inserted, instead of having 312 positions randomly, only 38 compartments are there.
If 10 is the max number of cards can be stored in one compartment, on average about 23(needed to be confirmed) compartments are full, so only 15 compartments are available...

 

[alienated]

Compartments

Insertion may or may not be random, but it seems unlikely given the logistics involved in getting cards ready for play almost immediately. However, this in itself does not make the machines beatable. You need to know precisely how the cards are sorted, etc.

There are a few details mentioned in this thread that I don't believe to be correct. Most critically, it is not true that compartments have to have a minimum number of cards before they can be emptied. If there were really only 15 available compartments (due to such a constraint) AND compartments could not be emptied until they had 10 cards, then you would have the standard latency effect found with earlier machines. But there is virtually zero latency with the latest machines.

One thing to keep in mind. Although it is always worthwhile peeking inside the machine when it jams to see what you can find, you also need to consider the possibility that what you are observing may be a contributing cause to the jam. That is, when working smoothly, peaking inside might reveal something different.

And again, if you think you can track aces, why not go ahead and do it rather than broadcast your good fortune here? If you can really do this, posting about it is not in your interests. Not at all.

 

[taipafan]

Most critically, it is not true that compartments have to have a minimum number of cards before they can be emptied.

US Patent 7137627:
"...Most preferably, the microprocessor is programmed to skip compartments 106 having seven or fewer cards to maintain reasonable shuffling speed."

But there is virtually zero latency with the latest machines.

Not sure about the definition of "latency". For one2six, there are always 10+ cards kept at the exit, not in the compartments, they will not mix with the cards used in the last round. This makes card counting is possible.

Posting here is my interest, much more than playing in casino...doesn't mean I don't play.

 

[alienated]

Clarification regarding compartments

Regarding the minimum number of cards before emptying a compartment, I was referring to the one2six machines. Another poster had stated that according to a dealer the compartments had to have 10 cards before emptying. The patent number you provide in your most recent post is to an elevator-style machine, not the one2six.

When I said the machines have zero latency, I mean that a card just inserted can be among the first cards ejected into the buffer. You are of course correct that the card couldn't come out before any of the cards that are already waiting inside the buffer.

But trying to count the machines in this way would be almost worthless. Sure, you could assume 10-20 cards have to be dealt before the inserted cards can come out, but 10-20 cards out of 6 decks is terrible penetration. Note, if you did want to take this approach, you could actually get about one deck dealt out of six by playing at casinos that deal a few rounds before reinserting the cards. This is quite common. One reason it is common is because the casinos know a 1/6 deck game is of virtually no value to the player.

Keep in mind that even on the few occasions where you get a true count of +1 or +2 these are worth a little less than the average value of +1 and +2 true counts in a regular 6-deck shoe game because they are occurring at such shallow penetration (the floating advantage means these counts are worth a bit more deeper into the shoe).

So when I say there is zero latency, I mean that unless you have more information (about the way the cards are shuffled/sorted), you have to assume that a recently inserted card can be in the next compartment emptied into the buffer.

 

[taipafan]

There are a few details mentioned in this thread that I don't believe to be correct. Most critically, it is not true that compartments have to have a minimum number of cards before they can be emptied.
May I ask if it is you believe that there is no a minimum number or you got the confirmed information from somewhere?

But trying to count the machines in this way would be almost worthless.
Almost worthless still worthes in someplaces. In my area there are some 4 deck games with -0.23% at top, easily play by wonging. Another casino offers 0.7% junket chip commission that turns into about 0.35% real rebate, then +0.12% at top, counting helps. And only CSMs offered in the whole country.

Just found in http://www.borisbj21.com:
Latency of Redistribution
In layman's terms, this means cards played on one round probably won't appear on the next. Exactly when the cards find their way back into the shuffle depends on the number of players, the speed of play, and most importantly the variety of machine itself.

 

[alienated]

Clarification

Almost worthless still worthes in someplaces. In my area there are some 4 deck games with -0.23% at top, easily play by wonging. Another casino offers 0.7% junket chip commission that turns into about 0.35% real rebate, then +0.12% at top, counting helps. And only CSMs offered in the whole country.

You're right. Worthwhile is relative.

If the patent you cite is not deliberately misleading on the minimum before emptying, then for that machine there appears to be a minimum. As you indicate in an earlier post, this would be for speed and is (if it is really the case) a weakness of the machine. (Keep in mind patents on these machines are sometimes misleading - e.g. the number of compartments in the one2six is a long way off the number in the patent diagrams, probably deliberately.)

As I indicated in my previous post, my statement about there being no minimum before emptying properly applies to the one2six. I was wrong to make such a blanket statement. (The reason I did so is that, in my head, I was responding to the earlier post by marquoise about the one2six, though I can see that there was no way readers could have known this.) The one2six is a very efficient machine and there is no minimum before emptying. Yes, I have this confirmed, but don't want to say how. You can take it or leave it.

 

[taipafan]

Maybe here is a way to found out if there is a minimum number...

Suppose there is a fixed number(N), whenever the number of cards buffered at the exit drops down to N, cards in one of the compartments will be pushed to the exit buffer. Whenever this happens, we know, tell from the sound and the little motion we can see on the first card at the exit.
We count the cards(D) dealt before the next time of buffering,

The minimum number of the D = The minimum number of cards before emptying a compartment.