DD games at Bellagio, Mirage, and TI

[Diver]

Bingo+

The Mirage DD games for $25 minimums ARE closely monitored, as they are at all of the NV M.G.M. properties.

They tend to evaluate your play after you depart if they suspect that you know what you are doing.
The polite "backoff" often accompanies inexperienced Card Counters on their 2nd visit IF they had played the tasty $25 DD games.

I can confirm FLASH is correct on the main points, but the backoff is more brusque than polite. It appears that Operations functions apart from the hosts who appear to have access only to limited player information. The timing required for action by Operations on the followup visit isn't instantaneous, but will happen if you play more than a brief session or two.

 

[Diver]

Nope--brusque

As a matter of policy, I do not believe MGM properties are brusque, however, any given back off might go that way, or the person being backed off more or less forces it in that direction by his own manner. If you are crude, don't expect any different from the club, but there is always the casino employee who does not take casino policy to heart and is crude in his or her own right.

At least one operations person at the Mirage was on this occasion. I am friendly, polite and non-threatening in stature or demeanor. After I was informed I could not play blackjack but could play any other games, I said, "OK, can I ask . . ." and was cut off and told "I don't have to give you a reason" and I said "Fine, but may I ask you a quesion?" He said "No" turned and walked off. I consider that brusque. His tense bearing suggested he was prepared for someone giving him a hard time and was uninterested in anything but reciting his bit and moving on. Not threatening by any means, but not polite, either.

 

[aslan]

At least one operations person at the Mirage was on this occasion. I am friendly, polite and non-threatening in stature or demeanor. After I was informed I could not play blackjack but could play any other games, I said, "OK, can I ask . . ." and was cut off and told "I don't have to give you a reason" and I said "Fine, but may I ask you a quesion?" He said "No" turned and walked off. I consider that brusque. His tense bearing suggested he was prepared for someone giving him a hard time and was uninterested in anything but reciting his bit and moving on. Not threatening by any means, but not polite, either.

Not very friendly, to say the least. He won't go far. Was he "surveillance" or a floor person?

What did you want to ask, "What about your play got you backed off?" Not everyone who works for MGM properties is a pro--some get their jobs by whom they know or whom they are doing--like anywhere else, I suppose.

 

[Diver]

Surveillance/operations

Not very friendly, to say the least. He won't go far. Was he "surveillance" or a floor person?

What did you want to ask, "What about your play got you backed off?" Not everyone who works for MGM properties is a pro--some get their jobs by whom they know or whom they are doing--like anywhere else, I suppose.

He was not a floor person. Showed up with a notebook, looked ruffled and tense. But this whole thing was the result of stupidity/complacency on my part. I had been at the Mirage for a multi-day stay with my wife previously and played frequently for three days, spread out between shifts but still seing some of the same floor people from day-to-day. I had been backed off at another MGM property a certain time previously and was curious to see if that would follow me. Clearly, it didn't----at least until the repeat visit which was less than two months. Lesson: if you use the casino you stay at as a home base, don't overdo it. I played at plenty of other venues, but the Mirage was tempting to frequent due to the good condititions. My sense now is that I'll have to play any MGM property without using a players card, or at least my own players card.:cry:

 

[aslan]

He was not a floor person. Showed up with a notebook, looked ruffled and tense. But this whole thing was the result of stupidity/complacency on my part. I had been at the Mirage for a multi-day stay with my wife previously and played frequently for three days, spread out between shifts but still seing some of the same floor people from day-to-day. I had been backed off at another MGM property a certain time previously and was curious to see if that would follow me. Clearly, it didn't----at least until the repeat visit which was less than two months. Lesson: if you use the casino you stay at as a home base, don't overdo it. I played at plenty of other venues, but the Mirage was tempting to frequent due to the good condititions. My sense now is that I'll have to play any MGM property without using a players card, or at least my own players card.:cry:

I don't know if MGM properties share surveillance files.

 

[FLASH1296]

With 100% certainty I can state that, at least in Las Vegas, the M.G.M. stores share surveillance info'

 

[kewljason]

With 100% certainty I can state that, at least in Las Vegas, the M.G.M. stores share surveillance info'

Flash is correct. Get backed off at one place and it's noted on your account immediately for all properties to see. Best defense is to play short sessions and play unrated at MGM properties, even at $25 level, especially if you play there regularly. Luckily comps in vegas is no longer a priority for me.

 

[FLASH1296]

I can confirm that surveillance information is shared between MGM properties, following a simple back-off, within a matter of hours, at least in some cases.

I imagine, but am less than certain, that surveillance info' re: suspected A.P.'s [that are yet unconfirmed] is not shared.

However, I suspect that, if the level of the action is sufficiently high, it will be. That level is probably playing heavy black to light purple - and / or winning > $5,000 or more. That 5 K "choke point" could be down to $3,000 by now, but here I am simply speculating.

 

[aslan]

I can confirm that surveillance information is shared between MGM properties, following a simple back-off, within a matter of hours, at least in some cases.

I imagine, but am less than certain, that surveillance info' re: suspected A.P.'s [that are yet unconfirmed] is not shared.

However, I suspect that, if the level of the action is sufficiently high, it will be. That level is probably playing heavy black to light purple - and / or winning > $5,000 or more. That 5 K "choke point" could be down to $3,000 by now, but here I am simply speculating.

I agree. On top of that, certain surveillance persons at various properties are either friends or have family ties, and discussions do frequently occur between them.

 

[toastblows]

can one of you vegas regulars tell me what the pen is on those DD Mirage tables ($25 day, 50/100 night) by the box office where they make the dealers cut using the burn holder with a slit? It looks really bad (I was there over the weekend and confirmed that it was these tables I saw last year where the pen was cut and dry)

 

[zengrifter]

As a matter of policy, I do not believe MGM properties are brusque...

Au contrair, mon ami >>

MGM, Others Abuse Patrons' Rights

 

[aslan]

I can confirm that surveillance information is shared between MGM properties, following a simple back-off, within a matter of hours, at least in some cases.

I imagine, but am less than certain, that surveillance info' re: suspected A.P.'s [that are yet unconfirmed] is not shared.

However, I suspect that, if the level of the action is sufficiently high, it will be. That level is probably playing heavy black to light purple - and / or winning > $5,000 or more. That 5 K "choke point" could be down to $3,000 by now, but here I am simply speculating.

If you were backed off at the Mirage and left walking south, chances are Bellagio surveillance would already have a line on you and might possibly ID you crossing Flamingo Road. Get thee to an unrelated property! :grin:

 

[rukus]

can one of you vegas regulars tell me what the pen is on those DD Mirage tables ($25 day, 50/100 night) by the box office where they make the dealers cut using the burn holder with a slit? It looks really bad (I was there over the weekend and confirmed that it was these tables I saw last year where the pen was cut and dry)

about 60% if it hasnt changed in the last 3 months... good stuff ey? not the best pen of the mgm properties, but that is all i will say. get yourself a copy of cbjn if you can.

 

[toastblows]

about 60% if it hasnt changed in the last 3 months... good stuff ey? not the best pen of the mgm properties, but that is all i will say. get yourself a copy of cbjn if you can.

I first remembered seeing that in 2008...but I was drunk and just walking by and couldnt remember if it was TI or Mirage.....I confirmed it was last week. Yeah 60% pen. Horrible. I also watched a Single Deck 6:5 at Mirage where she probably dealt 23-26 cards tops before shuffle....:laugh::laugh::laugh: And 5 people are sitting there...Jesus that is sad.

There was one dealer I ran into at an MGM property on this trip dealing 6 deck....man she was cutting north of 85%....probably late 50s and didnt care...because when her replacement showed up it was about 75%, back to the coal mines type blackjack BS pen.

 

[FLASH1296]

You think 60% pen' on a DD DAS game is "terrible"

No insult intended, but I must say that you really have an awful lot to learn.

Just understand that if you attack that game with any level of skill, even with

a 6-1 spread you will (ultimately) be barred from all of the M.G.M. properties.

Not being drunk in a casino is also worthy of consideration.

 

[aslan]

You think 60% pen' on a DD DAS game is "terrible"

No insult intended, but I must say that you really have an awful lot to learn.

Just understand that if you attack that game with any level of skill, even with

a 6-1 spread you will (ultimately) be barred from all of the M.G.M. properties.

Not being drunk in a casino is also worthy of consideration.

Flash,

You're right, because by the time you get a nice long positive count, you may have depleted your bankroll significantly. If you luck out and hit a long positive count early on (and it has to be early with a 60 % pen, because not that many cards will be dealt), you may get lucky and beat the game. Even then, you are limited to a "once through" or "twice through" approach.

A "once through" approach will never get you backed off. That is, if you wait until you reach a positive count early in the deal, because then you have a chance of having a sustained positive count. You are then free to bet whatever you wish without regard to heat. Why? Because first the PC will call surveillance. Unless they immediately review the tape, you will be free to finish out the deal betting to your heart's content. They will prepare to count with you on the next shuffle, but you will be long gone with no forwarding address (that is, they can't ID you if you don't give them a club card).

I am always tempted to go for twice through in games with good pen, because the first time, the "eye" is generally not alerted to you. The second shuffle with a positive count, the eye may wait until the end of the deal to have you backed off, in which case you are gone.

But, like you, I can't remember playing a 60% pen game, because you have to get lucky for things to work out as described above. Normally you will only get brief positive runs, unless you're playing alone. One or two brief positive runs just aren't worth the effort IMO.

 

[rukus]

You think 60% pen' on a DD DAS game is "terrible"

No insult intended, but I must say that you really have an awful lot to learn.

Just understand that if you attack that game with any level of skill, even with

a 6-1 spread you will (ultimately) be barred from all of the M.G.M. properties.

Not being drunk in a casino is also worthy of consideration.

60% isnt horrible, but it is not great. not when there are other MGM DD games with better pen. and that "ultimately" being barred is very subjective isnt it. i play those mgm games with a 1-8/10 spread on average and have logged significant time at those mgm games (will not post my hours publicly). have yet to have a problem besides some very modest heat in the years i have played those games. in fact i am often welcomed back. either way, 60% is nothing to get excited about, it is mediocre at best.

 

[toastblows]

You think 60% pen' on a DD DAS game is "terrible"

No insult intended, but I must say that you really have an awful lot to learn.

Just understand that if you attack that game with any level of skill, even with

a 6-1 spread you will (ultimately) be barred from all of the M.G.M. properties.

Not being drunk in a casino is also worthy of consideration.

60% pen is bad in my book. If Im by myself then at least I can use the spreading to my advantage in that short of a window..but if you think its a good game to have say 3 people sitting at and you are trying to make a ton without being found out, good luck to you sir.

Mirages 6 deck game pens are better than that self imposed 60% cut everytime IMHO...though I rarely play BJ there. too each his own. :cool2:

 

[FLASH1296]

60% pen' is obviously fine for a DD game that is -.19% off the top;
just as long as you play heads up or with one other patron.

 

[toastblows]

60% pen' is obviously fine for a DD game that is -.19% off the top;
just as long as you play heads up or with one other patron.

heads up is all I play on DD. Its not worth my time with pen being crap these days. I have found 6D to be my favorite when I used to loath it. Shows what a good 85% pen 6D can do to your tastes in a short time.