Dealer Mistakes

[kewljason]

I missed the post where Sonny recycled the wheelchair. So I am curious as to how far Sonny and moo321 are in their actions vs perceived ethics?



Sonny, please reply as well.

Say I'm laying down 2 Green chips and catch a 6,5 against a six. I start fumbling around pockets etc. and don't have enough for a double down. (In reality I'd never do this, but for instance.)
So you (Moo/Sonny) graciously loan me 2 green chips to make the double. I/We win. I hand you back 3 greens and 5 reds. How many chips would you hand me back, if any?

Well, there is nothing unethical about this play. The original player doesn't have enough for the doubledown, so you are taking the doubledown and are entitled to the winnings from such. If it loses, you loses your chips as well. I mean how can it be only a loan if the original player has no way to repay you, in the event of a loss? As with all transactions of this sort, you need to specify the arrangement before hand.

The trick comes on a hand where I the player has a 10 or 11 vs dealer 7 or 8 and not enough for a doubledown (a position I would never be in). Player B wants to play the doubledown, but why should I let him without some sort of compensation? I am giving up my oportunity to hit a second time should I draw a small card.

 

[blackjack avenger]

Manipulation to the Back Room

Manipulating dealer errors repeatedly can probably lead to trouble!:joker::whip:

 

[sagefr0g]

....
So I'm thinking you get a few locals, regulars that can't stand you not making that bet and let them bet it. Sooner or later your gonna hit the 40 to 1 payoff and there is no doubt your gonna get a tip, probably large!!!!
How many of you guys have done this? I've heard of guys hustling the craps table sort of like that....
So that's what i have been doing with my down time. Also practicing a little back counting when i feel like it..
In my line of business you play the machines like they are going to be taken out tomorrow, and eventually they are usually sooner than later.....

Have a good friend gave me a quote::: Do what you gotta do now, so that you can do what you want to do later...... So 20 hours days now so i can do fun stuff later, lots of fun stuff... LOL

Thanks all

Machinist

yeah Machinist, i've done that at bj games that have 3cp.
thing is it's been for me just one of those things that happen, sort of thing, not something i've been able to initiate.
good for you on the back counting practice, just keep in mind the variance on that can be a bit of a roller coaster ride compared to some of the stuff you might be used to. (you've probably noticed that while practicing, i guess)

and about playing the machines like they are going to be taken out tomorrow, and eventually they are usually sooner than later....., yeah i know what you mean, erhh i've thought about that possibility. like that could be kind of heart breaking.:cry:

 

[Machinist]

heart breaker or relief

yeah Machinist, i've done that at bj games that have 3cp.
thing is it's been for me just one of those things that happen, sort of thing, not something i've been able to initiate.
good for you on the back counting practice, just keep in mind the variance on that can be a bit of a roller coaster ride compared to some of the stuff you might be used to. (you've probably noticed that while practicing, i guess)

and about playing the machines like they are going to be taken out tomorrow, and eventually they are usually sooner than later....., yeah i know what you mean, erhh i've thought about that possibility. like that could be kind of heart breaking.:cry:

Hey Sage,!!!
Sometimes its a relief. Try spending almost 2 years on one joint, doing the same crap over and over , the money is so damned good you can't leave. I MEAN you can't leave!!!!!!! It's horrible...... so horrible after about a year......
My bro and i finally got 86ed, a friendly 86 ing, i almost kissed the slot manager, and it was a he!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Luckily most of the machines were gone by then. Still it was a good gig for a friend of ours for about another 6 months...
I often wonder where that manager went to... Good guy, he put up with alot of crap..
How's it going SAgefrog? Ya ready for a visit my way yet? Give me a date i will get you and the missis a room and meals, Real nice suites here buddy..... I'll even put you 2 to work, make it a weekend all the better...

Take care all

Machinist

 

[sagefr0g]

Hey Sage,!!!
Sometimes its a relief. Try spending almost 2 years on one joint, doing the same crap over and over , the money is so damned good you can't leave. I MEAN you can't leave!!!!!!! It's horrible...... so horrible after about a year......
My bro and i finally got 86ed, a friendly 86 ing, i almost kissed the slot manager, and it was a he!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Luckily most of the machines were gone by then. Still it was a good gig for a friend of ours for about another 6 months...
I often wonder where that manager went to... Good guy, he put up with alot of crap..
How's it going SAgefrog? Ya ready for a visit my way yet? Give me a date i will get you and the missis a room and meals, Real nice suites here buddy..... I'll even put you 2 to work, make it a weekend all the better...

Take care all

Machinist

heh, heh, you know it's good. like you say too darned good, makes it hard to tear your self away, for sure.
like Y and i just completed, i dunno maybe about a 48 hour road trip, machines and bj.
then on the way home there was this one last joint i just had to stop in, to check 'my machines', but poor Y was so wore out i had to bite the bullet and pass it up. :cry::laugh::eyepatch:
but definitely will get with you about a weekend, thank you.

 

[RJT]

I think the question of ethics when it comes to hole carding, dealer mistakes and scavenger play is overstated at best. Take a look at it -

Hole Carding - Firstly it is legal, it is the casino's responsibility to train their dealers to protect their down card. More importantly, if casinos were really that worried about this problem they could easily solve it by simply removing the HC. ENHC for BJ, 3CP they could deal the dealer's card after the players have made their decision (as no dealer cards are exposed they don't need to be laid down at the start) etc. They don't because they don't think that their sucker customers won't like this - they make more off of their genuine gambling customers than they lose to APs by a long long way. So given that there is an easily applied solution to this problem that they choose not to apply, dealing with a player who can spot a HC is what should be considered a cost of business rather than an ethical question.

Dealer Mistakes - It's very infrequent to hear of a casino reviewing tapes, spotting an error in the casinos favour and rushing out to give the player back his money, however when they spot an error in the player's favour, they are very quick to demand the player return the over payment.
On top of this, casinos specifically create environments that are distracting; bright flashing lights everywhere, girls with little modesty, free alcohol and this isn't even touching on the psychological reward system manipulation they've become masters at employing. All of these behaviours on the casinos part are designed to cause you to make poorly considered decisions, play longer and larger than you'd intended and ultimately feel that the casino's your friend while they are robbing you blind.
From this point on i'm going to consider a mistake to be a poorly judged decision that given the proper time or a more normal circumstance you wouldn't make.
They encourage you to make mistakes offering every possible opportunity for you to become distracted or have your judgement clouded, if you take advantage of their mistakes or even encourage them you are only returning the favour.

Scavenger Play - When your average sucker goes into a casino, they go in with the common wisdom that the house has the advantage over them and that ultimately they'll lose. They don't learn the best strategies to minimise their losses as this would be restricting and boring to play. Instead they play on hunches - hoping to hit that big win on the next spin and guessing at what the next card out of the deck will be.
If i offer to buy a hand off another player, or put up the extra money for a split, double or insurance - even if i know this is a bad offer for them - they have the choice of whether to accept this offer. It's no different to any of the other bad decisions they make while they are playing, only that i'm taking some of the money this time rather than the casino. You see sucker on sucker deals like this all the time, hell i've had plenty of them offer me extra money for various plays that i've no interest in making. I don't consider it immoral for them to make these offers to me or other players and i'm not going to consider it immoral for me to make these offers to other players simply because i had the good sense to go and learn what a good play was before entering a casino. If they were all that interested in learning how to play there's plenty of information freely available to educate them.
More-over, knowing something that the other party doesn't (or perhaps valuing information or product at a different worth) is the cornerstone that business is based on. Without that capitalism couldn't exist and nor would casinos.

RJT.

 

[Nynefingers]

Very well said. Looks like my beliefs and yours on the topic are pretty well aligned.

 

[Machinist]

Rjt

Well put RJT!!! Thanks for laying it out so well. Oky doky back to business with a little more EV... Appreciate all the responses.. Good to get all the perspectives...

Machinist

 

[politcat]

It's just an example of how people's viewpoints are often very different and can cause them to condemn behavior that other people don't consider to be wrong at all.

moral relativism on a very muddy, slippery slope

how about i'll just come over there and demand your $$ at gun point?! after all, it's just a viewpoint...you looking down the barrel of my gun

sheesh

 

[politcat]

...casinos specifically create environments that are distracting... All of these behaviours on the casinos part are designed to cause you to make poorly considered decisions... if you take advantage of their mistakes or even encourage them you are only returning the favour.

you knowingly taking what you didn't earn through play is stealing. pretty simple stuff i learned before i could count to 100

why isn't counting cards good enough?

 

[daddybo]

you knowingly taking what you didn't earn through play is stealing. pretty simple stuff i learned before i could count to 100

why isn't counting cards good enough?

Why aren't fair games good enough for the stores.?

 

[creeping panther]

Hmmm fair

Why aren't fair games good enough for the stores.?

I have done just about everything,,,including cutting dealers in on the action and compromising dealers.

AP's are the closest thing to Organized Crime and the Outlaw motorcycle clubs, without being outright criminal....most of the time.


CP

 

[Machinist]

Gray area

I prefer to stay in the gray area...... At times it got a little dark....... but that scares me to much, Don't do that anymore, i tend to stay in the lighter gray areas now....
CP not you !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I can't imagine..LOL I mean everybody wants a little bit better edge,,,,,,,,, right??? LOL


Machinist

 

[politcat]

Why aren't fair games good enough for the stores.?

what i've learned around here is that there are beatable games and it's up to us to find them and learn how to beat em

the rest we stay away from and leave to the suckers

sounds fair enough to me

 

[Katweezel]

I think the question of ethics when it comes to hole carding, dealer mistakes and scavenger play is overstated at best. Take a look at it -

Hole Carding - Firstly it is legal, it is the casino's responsibility to train their dealers to protect their down card. More importantly, if casinos were really that worried about this problem they could easily solve it by simply removing the HC. ENHC for BJ, 3CP they could deal the dealer's card after the players have made their decision (as no dealer cards are exposed they don't need to be laid down at the start) etc. They don't because they don't think that their sucker customers won't like this - they make more off of their genuine gambling customers than they lose to APs by a long long way. So given that there is an easily applied solution to this problem that they choose not to apply, dealing with a player who can spot a HC is what should be considered a cost of business rather than an ethical question.

Dealer Mistakes - It's very infrequent to hear of a casino reviewing tapes, spotting an error in the casinos favour and rushing out to give the player back his money, however when they spot an error in the player's favour, they are very quick to demand the player return the over payment.
On top of this, casinos specifically create environments that are distracting; bright flashing lights everywhere, girls with little modesty, free alcohol and this isn't even touching on the psychological reward system manipulation they've become masters at employing. All of these behaviours on the casinos part are designed to cause you to make poorly considered decisions, play longer and larger than you'd intended and ultimately feel that the casino's your friend while they are robbing you blind.
From this point on i'm going to consider a mistake to be a poorly judged decision that given the proper time or a more normal circumstance you wouldn't make.
They encourage you to make mistakes offering every possible opportunity for you to become distracted or have your judgement clouded, if you take advantage of their mistakes or even encourage them you are only returning the favour.

Scavenger Play - When your average sucker goes into a casino, they go in with the common wisdom that the house has the advantage over them and that ultimately they'll lose. They don't learn the best strategies to minimise their losses as this would be restricting and boring to play. Instead they play on hunches - hoping to hit that big win on the next spin and guessing at what the next card out of the deck will be.
If i offer to buy a hand off another player, or put up the extra money for a split, double or insurance - even if i know this is a bad offer for them - they have the choice of whether to accept this offer. It's no different to any of the other bad decisions they make while they are playing, only that i'm taking some of the money this time rather than the casino. You see sucker on sucker deals like this all the time, hell i've had plenty of them offer me extra money for various plays that i've no interest in making. I don't consider it immoral for them to make these offers to me or other players and i'm not going to consider it immoral for me to make these offers to other players simply because i had the good sense to go and learn what a good play was before entering a casino. If they were all that interested in learning how to play there's plenty of information freely available to educate them.
More-over, knowing something that the other party doesn't (or perhaps valuing information or product at a different worth) is the cornerstone that business is based on. Without that capitalism couldn't exist and nor would casinos.

RJT.

Very well put together piece RJT; one which the casinos will not like very much, as you hit all the nails on the heads so well... I particularly liked the (bold type) sentence in 'dealer mistakes.' :grin: Yep, the casinos have now had about fifty or sixty years' practice in honing their sheep-herding/skinning skills and have become highly skilled; particularly in the 'distractions' department. Your post illustrates the type of mindset a prospective AP requires on those three topics... And here's a quote that demonstrates a little something about casino owners:
"When we put fifty machines in, I consider them fifty more mousetraps. You have to have a mousetrap to catch a mouse." Bob Stupak former LV casino owner. :eyepatch:

An AP might say: "When we mice go into a casino, we need more than one trick up our sleeve to get the cheese".

 

[Katweezel]

I have done just about everything,,,including cutting dealers in on the action and compromising dealers.

AP's are the closest thing to Organized Crime and the Outlaw motorcycle clubs, without being outright criminal....most of the time.


CP

CP, I'm with you on this... You were never a sheep, hey...:grin:

 

[RJT]

moral relativism on a very muddy, slippery slope

how about i'll just come over there and demand your $$ at gun point?! after all, it's just a viewpoint...you looking down the barrel of my gun

sheesh

you knowingly taking what you didn't earn through play is stealing. pretty simple stuff i learned before i could count to 100

why isn't counting cards good enough?

Ok - i'm going to be as polite as i possibly can be to someone who has just made a comparison between this discussion and trivialising someone’s life in the act of armed robbery.
Politcat - you failed to make one counter argument to any of the points made previously. Instead you chose to go down the tried and tested line that every major religion has used since the dawn of time, that being to demonise anything you don't like (take a good look at the treatment of drugs, sex and rock and roll by all major religions for good examples of this).
Your extreme example has no relevance and no worth as a comparison here. You are deliberately throwing in the most drastic situation you could think of - and that my friend is called scaremongering.
As to it - if you want to do a dealer's job for them and correct every mistake they make, far be it from me to stop you. But not all their mistakes will favour you and you won't catch all of the ones that don't. They're not going to return that favour. To carry on your analogy, you'll be involved in a pistol duel, but you won't have a gun.
Next time, why not come up with reasonable counter-points laid out in a rational fashion rather than thumping your bible and screaming "Thow art the child of SAAAAATTANNNNNNNNN". [stage directions - add in high pitched screetchy voice on the word satan]

RJT.

 

[politcat]

RJT,
unlike you I won't make assumptions about a total stranger

religion has nothing to do with this discussion, well, at least not until you brought it up. I won't go there. argument against you're mentality...they're sticking it to me so I'll stick it to them...doesn't need any help from religion

and jeeez, you completely missed the gun barrel comment

maybe you are satan's child

 

[Deathclutch]

RJT,
unlike you I won't make assumptions about a total stranger

religion has nothing to do with this discussion, well, at least not until you brought it up. I won't go there. argument against you're mentality...they're sticking it to me so I'll stick it to them...doesn't need any help from religion

and jeeez, you completely missed the gun barrel comment

maybe you are satan's child

Are you looking to make money or play a math game? If you're looking to make money I say take any advantage you can get, although personally I'd stop short of outright robbing people, wheelchair or not.

 

[RJT]

RJT,
unlike you I won't make assumptions about a total stranger

religion has nothing to do with this discussion, well, at least not until you brought it up. I won't go there. argument against you're mentality...they're sticking it to me so I'll stick it to them...doesn't need any help from religion

and jeeez, you completely missed the gun barrel comment

maybe you are satan's child

And you don't seem to be capable of picking up on a comparison either - the religious referrence was simply pointing out your similar approach to justifying why another's actions are immoral - that being simply that you don't like them.
If you have any actual justifiable points to make on why it's wrong, other than your flimsy interpretation of theft i'm more than happy to hear them, but as it stands it seems you are not only prepared to roll over and let them f**k you, you're going to hand them the lub.
By the way, i tend to get shirty when people make me out to be some low life who has no moral standards (you may as well just take the money at gunpoint blah blah blah).

RJT.