Dealing with a cheat

[Automatic Monkey]

Sooner or later I'm going to see it, a dauber, a bender, a bet-capper, a dealer bottom-dealing. Now I realize these are all very different situations, but I was wondering who has seen these before and what is the best way for me to react?

The possible responses I can think of are: walk away, run away, complain quietly, complain loudly, ignore it and react in no way, or try to use the situation to my playing advantage. As a counter I'd just as soon have no cheating at all at the table because it will subject the whole table to added scrutiny and could affect the odds of the game to my detriment. Or maybe the attention would be focused on the cheat and away from me, allowing me to spread more. My first instinct would be to just get up and leave. But I could be wrong, maybe there's a better way to react?

 

[revereman]

First instincts are often right--just get up and leave--for the reasons you mentioned. In my opinion, you don't want to be anywhere near cheating on either side of the table. You just want to be another gambler that the pit doesn't notice, or even better, thinks is a typical ploppy.

 

[Rob McGarvey]

Depends on the situation. I was at a table where they were breaking in a new dealer that was flashing his HC. If I think about some of the things I have seen and done after the fact it gets you wondering about yourself. I guess it depends on who is cheating. I can't quote the source now, but it is written that a man should not enter into a quarrel that is not his. There are wisdom in those words.

 

[LV Bear]

Run away

My first instinct would be to just get up and leave.

Trust your instinct. Any advantage you could gain is more than offset by the potential hassles of "guilt by association." Don't expect the casino or gaming agents to be honorable. You can easily get swept up in someone else's problems. There are plenty of profitable situations out there. You don't need to get involved in a situation with this much risk.

 

[AnonThisTime]

I pulled...

off Carlson's "Quadruple down" the other week. The player at 3rd base made some sort of comment, but everyone stuck around. It actually was quite exhilerating.

 

[Abraham de Moivre]

Re: I pulled...

Wow! That is pretty cool. Why don't you try shoplifting a pack of smokes at your nearest carry-out store? You will probably get the same thrill.

 

[The Mayor]

Re: I pulled...

It is one thing to take advantage of errors by the house, it is another to intentionally past-post, cap your bet, or quadruple down. Please don't make a habit of it, or we may be sending you postcards.

That said, I have my own confession. I doubled down on a max bet and pulled a total of 20. The dealer pulled a 9 card 21 with 7 aces in it (ok, I exaggerate, but you know the feeling). I grabbed my money on the table and shouted "push!" -- the dealer made me put it back, one relenting quarter at a time, until it was all there.

This is the only time I tried out-and-out thievery, and I am not proud of it.

However, this makes for an interesting thread, and I hope others will 'fess up.

--Mayor

 

[Victoria]

This did not happen to me but to my uncle back around 1981 or so at the Sahara.
He sat down at a table, next to first base and quickly discovered that the dealer was flashing the next card to first base. He used that knowledge for a short period of time and quickly thought about the situation and ran away. It was obvious that the dealer and first base were together and he had no desire to be connected or arrested with them.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Re: I pulled...

Yeah I've thought about the quadruple down myself. Probably not worth it though, too obvious to the cameras.

Sometimes with a sloppy dealer I can get a dealer to flash the next card with well-timed and ambiguous hand signals. The shops where I play tend to resolve even the smallest dispute in favor of the player so I've been able to force a dealer error and get a free play every other trip or so. This is not cheating though, any more than hole-carding is cheating. The sign in the poker room clearly states that all players are responsible for protecting their own hand, and the dealer is a player in blackjack. Unless of course you use a device to help you holecard, that is illegal.

 

[revereman]

Re: I pulled...

I have to say in almost 25 years of playing, I have never cheated. Unless you say that not telling a dealer that I was paid on a push or loss is cheating. I do not consider that cheating at all, especially there have probably been just as many times when a dealer tried to take my winning or pushed bet (by mistake, not cheating I believe). I would say that both sides of that equation happen maybe 2-3 times a year. I don't not cheat (nice double negative) because of my high moral standards but more from the fear of getting caught. Unless you're playing really high stakes where it's worth cheating and you're really good at it, I don't think it's worth cheating. Just my humble opinion.

 

[Feep]

Ethical or not?

This last year I gave a VERY talkative female dealer $400 and was given 3 blacks and 8 greens in return. Neither she or anyone else noticed, and then two hands later said: "Did I give you two or three black chips?" I responded "I dunno I think two?" (I had a few more blacks at my spot now, as I had been making max bets of ~$250 and had won). She said "Well the cameras will see it..." in a semi-authoritarian voice. I said "Oh, good, should we ask?" in my most innocent ploppy oh-dear-I-hope-Robert-De-Niro-doesn't-pop-out-and-break-my-fingers voice. She responded "Never mind." I had assumed she would not want her error revealed, called her bluff, and it worked.

That was the edge for me, and as close to cheating as I have ever, or will ever, get.

Now I know none of us have any problem with taking a pay on push, or push on a loss. But was that ethical or not? I kinda feel bad about that one.

Feep

 

[revereman]

Re: Ethical or not?

I wouldn't call it ethical what you did but as far as I am concerned, you did nothing wrong. The ethical thing would have been to return the chips (read today's Wall Street Journal on Japan's take on ethics). I've ALMOST gotten more chips than I deserved, but the casino's checks and balances worked. It is the casino's responsibility to make sure their customers are not overpaid. I also don't believe in telling a clerk/cashier that they have given me too much change, but that's me.

 

[learning to count]

Ethics in Gambling 101: READ THIS!!!!!!!

Feep,

Taking advantage of dealer errors such as card flashes, over mispayments,
or mistaken pushes is not cheating. If you feel that you are taking bread out of the casinos mouth then you are being naive. The casinos are there to take advantage of player greed: "The hope or belief that you will win material pleasure from wagering your mortgage payement." The casinos are "evil" and we are degenerates. We are addicted to gambling.

The only difference is we are skilled enough to take the casino's money by beating them at thier own game. We can overcome the VIG. We can also take advantage of free rooms, free food, and even get them to pay for our flights!

What you did is advantage play. Dont listen to the morons who constantly berate advantage players for taking advantage of these dealer errors or for "not" tipping the dealers; (and believe it or not tipping a dealer to give special consideration in the game such as deeper penetration or a little flash is the foundation for probable cause for a charge/arrest for cheating). "So ignore this silly ploppy advice about influencing the dealer with a tip." Tipping hurts the EV!!!!!

The dealers are part of one big casino scam. Which is to take ALL your money.

Congrats on your positive EV. I hope the camera did catch her mistake then maybe she will get a real job like a cashier at K-mart or a professional dog walker or a tire changer at Sears or maybe she will go to school and learn something like dentistry or law. She sounded like a jerk I played against my last trip to Vegas. I did not tip her and she visibly sneered with a groaning sound when she had to pay me my winning hands which were plenty against her. She was a career casino NAZI/LIFER.

Oh and take LV Bear's advice if you suspect a cheating issue is at hand leave the table. The eye in the sky has no intellectual ability to discern legal or illegal play. Some of the people watching these cameras have even less intellectual abilities as well. Just look at all the state of Nevada's recent lost Casino cases; of false arrest and false charges. If the dealer is the front line of defense for the casino so why are they so dumb????

 

[learning to count]

Re: I pulled...

Eliot I am proud of you for such a move! Dont grab the money next time you crossed the line by doing so. I have done the same thing with a dealer who could not figure out that five red cheques equalled a green one! just leave the bet out or the next hand in accordance to the count of course. I'm laughing that you feel bad, come on amigo, I know you better than that. Take no prisoners!

 

[learning to count]

Re: Ethical or not?

"The ethical thing would have been to return the chips..."

Ethics and law are two different things. Laws are a agreed upon way we want to society to run. Ethics are how we agree enmasse in our unique cultures of how we should "do the right thing". Law cover all ethics all ethics are not covered by law. Since ethics differ from culture to culture and mentality to mentality how can this act be unethical. In your mind truth will hold he should have given it back.

Saying that he not returning the chips was not ethical in this situation is an interesting way to view this. I humbly disagree. His action was equal to the intent of the casinos to use false hope to lure the suckers in and take ALL thier money. His action was not illegal. Ethical or unethical is hard to judge in the casino enviroment. Hell why dont the casino's admit to the customers that the only win in there game is for the casino and all their advertising for 99% slot payback is bullsh!t. I could go on and on with what I have seen and so could you reverman. When the casino bottom out a drunk sucker they toss em and tell him to come back when he has more cash. I've seen it and so have many other AP's.

This is a philosophical question for sure. Was he wrong? "No". Was he unethical. "NO". This is the AP world for sure. The ploppies can do what they want. Giving back a person thier wallet when they drop it is "the right thing to do". Giving back a thief his stole goods is "wrong". The right thing is to give it to the authorities and turn in the thief. The casinos, they are thieves. SO who you going to give the overpayment to? If you want to do the right thing I guess you can split it up amongst the ploppies and tell them to go home and pay thier mortgage. Its funny a lot of people will gve the casino back the money and not call the cops on the thief! IMHO!

 

[revereman]

NYTimes, not WSJ (nt)

xxxxxxxx

 

[revereman]

Re: Ethical or not?

We are really not as far apart as you seem to think. However, in my mind, laws are the collective societal thinking of what is right and wrong and ethics are what each individual thinks is right and wrong. In your thinking, two wrongs do make a right. Because casinos have no ethics, it's ok to screw them by taking their overpayments. That's not my reasoning. My reasoning for taking the overpayment (and any other mistakes they make) is that they are responsible for their own protection, not me (just like cashier/clerk who gives me too much change). Nobody is forcing anybody to gamble in a casino. If you don't like the rules or the odds, don't play the game. Just like an insurance company is not in the business of providing insurance (they are in the business of making money), casinos are not in the business of giving their money away.
If anyone saw the show Vegas this week, why would the Blue Man Group shred the $75,000? Would you have returned the $75,000? (I think you know my answer).

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Re: Ethical or not?

Now wait a minute, the casinos are not thieves. If they are, then we are accessories to theft, and we are going home with stolen property in our pockets after we play. Gambling is an adult decision, and I have reason to believe that the people sitting at that table are all adults, know what the odds are, and choose to take their chances anyway.

This is a game, our opponents are the casinos and sometimes our opponents make mistakes. It is no more unethical than a chessplayer taking advantage of an opponent's mistake. We're under no obligation to tell our opponents they have made a mistake, just like a dealer is not obliged to tell a weak player he is making a bad decision.

If you like a dealer and don't want to damage the human interconnection, that transcends all games and all money, by lying about an overpay, you can answer "You might have but I'm not sure" or "I prefer not to answer" or "I don't want either you or me to get in trouble so I'm not going to say."

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Re: Ethics in Gambling 101: READ THIS!!!!!!!

"What you did is advantage play. Dont listen to the morons who constantly berate advantage players for taking advantage of these dealer errors or for "not" tipping the dealers; (and believe it or not tipping a dealer to give special consideration in the game such as deeper penetration or a little flash is the foundation for probable cause for a charge/arrest for cheating). "So ignore this silly ploppy advice about influencing the dealer with a tip." Tipping hurts the EV!!!!!"

That's true, it hurts the EV. So does the drive out to that infamously named town of Mound House after a long night of gaming. But it makes me feel good. Your money is worthless unless you enjoy it.

The tipping also will help me from wearing out my welcome at the table. Understand that an experienced dealer will realize you are counting before the pit or surveillance, and being it isn't cheating he can report you or not at his option. Don't make him decide between that spot at his table going to a counter who definitely doesn't tip and a ploppy who probably will tip. He cares about his EV too. All the experts I've read say that you cannot hide forever, but you can get them to tolerate you.

 

[Rob McGarvey]

Re: Ethics in Gambling 101: READ THIS!!!!!!!

I can confess to cheating the casinos out of money, actually breaking the rules, but it is up to the dealer and PB to catch me doing it, like it is up to a cop to catch a Z3 when all you can see is two red dots disappearing in the $100 lane. The pit can turn a blind eye, or go postal on you. A few $1 tips can make the dif. I tip large when I get a good meal and good service, so a few whites played for the house don't mean squat to me. If ya can't tip a few whites without killing your edge you should stick to warming up the couch watching football. Remember the battle of New Orleans. Let them form ranks and make rules. You breakem and takem down. Find their benedict arnolds and take care of them, and they will do the same for you. The world is full of mercenaries. You have seen the enemy? I'm sucking the juice out of their bones with a bib around my neck.

Hanibal McLectar