Dealing with a cheat

[learning to count]

Re: Ethical or not?

"Now wait a minute, the casinos are not thieves. If they are, then we are accessories to theft, and we are going home with stolen property in our pockets after we play."

The casinos have a distinct history of violating laws and injuring "LEGAL" advantage players. You are naive.

" Gambling is an adult decision, and I have reason to believe that the people sitting at that table are all adults, know what the odds are, and choose to take their chances anyway."

The new games are designed to psychologically addict weak people and to take 100% of your money. The law sets standards for the games and this is what creates the weaknesses for advantage play. Any game that allows you to haveodds has a built in weakness that at some pint can be taken advantage of. Even the big wheel. Gambling is an adult descision. Advantage play is a intellectual skill. The casinos promote gambling which is losing. The casinos will go as far as violating the laws to stop skilled LEGAL play. You sound like a gambler not a advantage player.

"This is a game, our opponents are the casinos and sometimes our opponents make mistakes. It is no more unethical than a chessplayer taking advantage of an opponent's mistake. We're under no obligation to tell our opponents they have made a mistake, just like a dealer is not obliged to tell a weak player he is making a bad decision."

I agree now you sound like a inetelligent AP! The only problem is when the casino makes mistakes that cost you and you miss it they seldom if never correct it unless you complain.

""If you like a dealer and don't want to damage the human interconnection, that transcends all games and all money, by lying about an overpay, you can answer "You might have but I'm not sure" or "I prefer not to answer" or "I don't want either you or me to get in trouble so I'm not going to say." ""

Ploppy nonsense! Please stick to advantage play thinking. "If you like a dealer" jeeze like Louis XIV of france liked his executioner. He tipped him before he pulled the lever on the guillotin. Please we are talking about advantage play not gambling. IMHO

 

[learning to count]

Re: Ethics in Gambling 101: READ THIS!!!!!!!

""That's true, it hurts the EV. So does the drive out to that infamously named town of Mound House after a long night of gaming. But it makes me feel good. Your money is worthless unless you enjoy it.""

So why do you TIP????????? Buy a house with your winnings and live in it. Why give it back to the Casino???????

""The tipping also will help me from wearing out my welcome at the table. Understand that an experienced dealer will realize you are counting before the pit or surveillance, and being it isn't cheating he can report you or not at his option. Don't make him decide between that spot at his table going to a counter who definitely doesn't tip and a ploppy who probably will tip. He cares about his EV too. All the experts I've read say that you cannot hide forever, but you can get them to tolerate you.""

With all due respect but I usually wear out my welcome because I kick the casinos a$$. They dont want winners. All the pros I play with dont tip. They are making cash money. Most of the time when you are playing at a winning level you cant play long any way. You make money and have to leave or the suits will appear out of thin air like a bad sci fi movie. You must play under the radar at red level. Tipping at this level is mental masturbation. You not playing even close to a winning game. IMHO

 

[learning to count]

Re: Ethics in Gambling 101: READ THIS!!!!!!!

""I can confess to cheating the casinos out of money, actually breaking the rules, but it is up to the dealer and PB to catch me doing it, like it is up to a cop to catch a Z3 when all you can see is two red dots disappearing in the $100 lane. The pit can turn a blind eye, or go postal on you.""

I agree it is the casinos responsibility to catch you. This is dangerous it means being arrested. Cheating is illegal. Keeping money from a casino mistake is not cheating. Ethics are as revereman said up to (and I may add:each individual)society.

"" A few $1 tips can make the dif. I tip large when I get a good meal and good service, so a few whites played for the house don't mean squat to me. If ya can't tip a few whites without killing your edge you should stick to warming up the couch watching football. Remember the battle of New Orleans. Let them form ranks and make rules. You breakem and takem down. Find their benedict arnolds and take care of them, and they will do the same for you. The world is full of mercenaries. You have seen the enemy? I'm sucking the juice out of their bones with a bib around my neck.

Hanibal McLectar""

Robbie dear old freind the play you speak of is a Las Vegas vacation. Happy go lucky throwing some cash around playing for comps fun. Tipping is bad for the EV and impossible at a professional level. A one dollar tip when you score 5 or 6 thousand is a joke. I would rather hit em and leave em broke and keep em wondering. I can see them when you win a couple grand in tweny minutes or so and you toss them a couple of silvers. The dealer would be hating your cheap card counting a$$. Just my humble oppinion. LTC : )

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Re: Ethics in Gambling 101: READ THIS!!!!!!!

"So why do you TIP????????? Buy a house with your winnings and live in it. Why give it back to the Casino???????"

If that's the case, why tip the waitress in the restaurant either? Dealers work for tips. Where I usually play the dealers all share tips, but still, they like to see tips. Plenty of times I have accidentally given an obvious wrong hand signal and the dealer waited for the right one. They don't have to do that, and I don't have to tip. Every time they do this for me on a big bet they pay me back ten gaming sessions worth of tips. And I screw up more than once every 10 gaming sessions.

"With all due respect but I usually wear out my welcome because I kick the casinos a$$. They dont want winners. All the pros I play with dont tip. They are making cash money. Most of the time when you are playing at a winning level you cant play long any way. You make money and have to leave or the suits will appear out of thin air like a bad sci fi movie. You must play under the radar at red level. Tipping at this level is mental masturbation. You not playing even close to a winning game. IMHO"

Red level? Who's playing there? I'm usually at a green or blue table. If I can't drop some silver and a smile on a nice dealer who catches my mistakes, speeds up when I ask to speed up (getting more hands per hour is alone worth the tokes), and keeps rude ploppies out of my hair, well then I'm being penny wise and pound foolish. Different parts of the country are different, I realize that, but here in the Northeast apparently you can spread green until your fingers turn green and no one will care, unless you piss somebody off.

 

[SammyBoy]

Rob, U R Funny!

 

[Rob McGarvey]

Hard Ethics with Soft Ethics

I doubt you will get arrested for doing what I do, just like I doubt jay walkers get arrested for walking across LV bullybard without a set of lights in front of them. They are many good reasons beyond the physical realm for tipping which I will touch on. Take a read thru the richest man in babylon and see how he gives 10% away, saves 10%, and lives on the other 80%. Giving away less than 1% of total earned dollars, not the total 1% advantage, to the person that made your winning possible is hardly anything worth worrying about.

Do as you see fit. That is what I do, and why I do it. Thank goodness I don't have to tip at the cybertables....smile The rest of my donations I get a tax reciept for, something to think about at this time of year. Time to top up the RRSP mutal funds and sink the kick back from the gov't into some other investment. grin Want to make sure my kids have the option to own businesses when they graduate from highschool, not just work for one.

 

[Rob McGarvey]

Re: Rob, U R Funny!

Life is suposed to be fun, and that is how I live. I am glad you like to share the laughter with me. Life is too short to be glum, chum. I am a freelance writer (with no spell checker) on the side of all my other jobs and know that people like to laugh. You can take a hard lesson in life, teach it to a person while getting them to enjoy learning it. A spoon full of sugar helps the medicine go down, in the most delightful way.

 

[learning to count]

Re: Ethics in Gambling 101: READ THIS!!!!!!!

""If that's the case, why tip the waitress in the restaurant either?""

Ugh a restuarant is different.

""Dealers work for tips. Where I usually play the dealers all share tips, but still, they like to see tips. Plenty of times I have accidentally given an obvious wrong hand signal and the dealer waited for the right one. They don't have to do that, and I don't have to tip. Every time they do this for me on a big bet they pay me back ten gaming sessions worth of tips. And I screw up more than once every 10 gaming sessions.""

Wow with that many mistakes you should play at red. Your EV has to be eaten up.

"Red level? Who's playing there? I'm usually at a green or blue table.""

Like I said why risk so much with so many mistakes and tips.

""If I can't drop some silver and a smile on a nice dealer who catches my mistakes, speeds up when I ask to speed up (getting more hands per hour is alone worth the tokes), and keeps rude ploppies out of my hair, well then I'm being penny wise and pound foolish. Different parts of the country are different, I realize that, but here in the Northeast apparently you can spread green until your fingers turn green and no one will care, unless you piss somebody off.""

Hey have at it if it makes you happy! LTC

 

[Feep]

Re: Ethical or not?

I get this and it makes sense to me. I'm "stealing" from thieves. I do absolutely return wallets should I find them. I guess therefore I wouldn't have a problem with outright cheating except I have a strange revulsion to being beaten and jailed.

Thanks for the insight guys...

Feep

 

[Victoria]

The toking thing, again

Ok, so the vast majority of pros do not tip. I would guess though that the vast majority of members on this board are not really pros but advantage players with other full time jobs and do not have the hours to become pros nor the time to travel the world looking for fresh places they have not been thrown out of lately. Basically, we have different situations.
For myself, because of work and family, I am lucky to get 250 hours of BJ per year. When I go to Vegas (2-3 times per year) I will play at several places and will play with the pro mindset of not worrying about longevity except at one place where I am comped very well. So for me and perhaps many others here, it is important to not wear out my welcome in this place and yes I probably do throw out 6-8 pieces of silver in an hour of a winning session. Like a good ploppy I throw a toke out there after winning a big hand and have another big bet out there. I do not need the dealer pissed and perhaps saying something to the pit about watching me. I have spread $25-$250 in this place for 5 years, generally surrounded by black chip players and have never received any serious heat. I am sure the small amount that I toke is not the reason but the few bucks during a winning session (please no EV responses) are in my mind, some help in longevity.
My guess is that for most members, if you have a place you want to continue returning too, and just took 5 or 6 thousand away from them, you would want the dealer to not hate you for winning.
Now I do not toke if loosing, do not toke to tip hustlers and do not toke again to dealers who do not say thank you.

Burn me at the cross as a heratic

 

[learning to count]

Re: Ethical or not?

""I get this and it makes sense to me. I'm "stealing" from thieves. I do absolutely return wallets should I find them. I guess therefore I wouldn't have a problem with outright cheating except I have a strange revulsion to being beaten and jailed.

Thanks for the insight guys...

Feep""

1)Stealing/theft is a criminal act.

2)Nevada supreme court ruled that dealer mistakes to wit: over payments, and card flashes, etc. etc.. are not criminally liable for the player who takes advantage of them.

3)Ethics depending on what truths you believe can go either way.
When I play I play in a legal manner and I take advantage of the casinos mistakes.

4)SO ditch this sh!T about stealing from thieves.

On to more important things....

 

[learning to count]

Re: The toking thing, again

Victoria,

As I have stated before if a person wants to toke have at it. Bottom line is that toking is negative for the EV. It is not professional play. Toking when you when will affect your future play. When you toke and lose your losses will be higher. This is a unecessary negative EV loss. You cannot predict if you will win or lose. You have to play and go with the deviation flow. In time you will win at the percentage win of your bank roll. You toke today because you won. Well tommorrow you will lose 5K and you can add the $100 bucks you toked the day before to your losses today. Thinking that you will be welcomed back after winning 5K the week before because you tipped the dealer a c-note is SILLY PLOPPY NONSENSE! A winner is not tolerated at casinos. IMHO LTC

 

[Victoria]

Re: The toking thing, again

LTC
No arguement that it is neg EV. I do not think my tokes would be the only reason I can return and importantly I do return, just a minor contributing factor. I also know I never toked $100 per day and do not claim to be a pro.
On the other hand, have won over 10 grand on a four day vegas trip at this one place, had no heat and returned four months later without a problem. Just a nice comped stay. It has made me wonder why I seemed to be blessed with tolerance there and I have a few reasons why that I must keep to myself. (Don't ruin a good thing.)

I think that many of us are limited in travel time and hours to play, and loosing some EV in tokes, being friendly with critters, and just not being all business all the time, might gain us some longevity.
It is not very different than some AP's who put in a little time at a casino playing neg EV games as cover in places where they plan to return.

 

[learning to count]

Re: The toking thing, again

""On the other hand, have won over 10 grand on a four day vegas trip at this one place, had no heat and returned four months later without a problem. Just a nice comped stay. It has made me wonder why I seemed to be blessed with tolerance there and I have a few reasons why that I must keep to myself. (Don't ruin a good thing.)""

You would fit in nice on our team. Ten grand is not ploppy play or wanna be card counter. Ce le guerre

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Re: The toking thing, again

The most valuable EV related thing I get for tokes is some control over the speed of play. A dealer can deal as fast or slow as he or she feels comfortable, and if I tell them I'm geeting sleepy and making mistakes, could they deal just a little faster, they usually do. Toke 10% of your EV and get 20% more hands per hour, I call that a bargain! Now don't toke, and ask the dealer to speed up a little, and watch what he does.

Just the statement made here "Pros don't toke" is good enough reason to toke. If they are evaluating your play there is no way you can hide being a counter. But they do not have the resources to evaluate everyone's play, just those they suspect might be pros. Buy a clue: don't make yourself a suspect. If it was generally believed "Pros never wear a green shirt", would you ever play in anything but a green shirt? One rule of ALL undercover work is that you do or appear to do what everyone else is doing, the best you can.

 

[learning to count]

Re: The toking thing, again

Pro's dont toke....The reason is that they guard thier EV and they dont stay at a table more than an hour. Long term quality play is suspect by many pit critters. Many who Wong dont bother as well because they are in and out and off to other tables. I have played hours and hours and have been welcomed back with out toking. As I said to victoria have at it if you are happy. Toking and the reaons for it don't compute as far as serious play goes. I guess a perosnal reason That I have is that the dealers are merely trained machines who work for the casino. They will have you axed as fast as they can when they suspect Card Counting. They are not your friend. Oh yeah when I say pro's I mean players who earn thier living by playing professional blackjack. They have a lot to worry about. The tourist who counts is in it for the fun and the ego trip of beating the casino. SO have at it tip to your hearts content. Great thread; on to a higher count!

 

[Feep]

Re: Ethical or not?

Thus the "quotes" around "stealing". I honestly think it is theft in an ethical sense, but not in the criminal sense. I'm not interested in stealing in the criminal sense. Ethical? Not usually but in this case not bothered...

Ok... more important stuff...