Dealing with a Ploppy dealer

[ihate17]

Bob, your question to me

You asked about how hard it would be for the casinos to instruct their casinos that basic strategy is correct and also how losing gets the dealer tips.
On the second point, using my example of the guru dealer. The tips come big time when the player is winning because every move and every bet has been dictated to him by that dealer. The advice sometimes is good, other times is not, but a good run means big big tips and while eventually the guy will lose it all back, those tips remain in the toke box.

The hard question: Dealers are not paid by the casino to give proper basic strategy advice and in fact neither are the floormen, pit bosses or anyone else working there. Those dealers and pits who do give good advice are performing customer service beyond what their boss pays them for and should be commended here as we demonize those who give bad advice. In more than 30 years of playing in Vegas I know several pits who give decent advice but I only know one who carries a good basic strategy card in his pocket and will show it to the player who asks him for advice. Now every casino could give every pit one of these cards and require him to do the same thing. It would be a great service and they are sort of in a service business, but not this kind of service. You want service? They will give you your drink for free and bring it to you. But if you wish the kind of service that decreases their bottom line, forget it.
Also, it would take time to train every dealer in basic strategy and why should they. Hard world as it is, it is up to the player to learn the strategy and if he is lazy he can spend a couple of dollars and get a card in the gift shop.

Besides all of this, there is the economics of blackjack. If they convinced every player to play perfect basic strategy they definately would not make enough money to keep their blackjack tables going without major changes in the rules. The casino bases their expenses, comps and everything involved with the profit on blackjack, on having a 2% edge on a game that only has a .5% edge over basic strategy. They can not afford to help you become a better player and it is in their interest to treat that ploppy or novice who plays at a loss of larger than 2% very happy but very ignorant.

ihate17

 

[SecurityRisk]

but I only know one who carries a good basic strategy card in his pocket and will show it to the player who asks him for advice.

I saw that happen once in my life and it actually took me by surprise. It wasn't in Vegas. It was at one of my local casinos. I'm playing third base. I'm dealt a soft 18 vs. the dealers 3, so I double down of course. The dealer ends up busting. A player tells me "Good job, but I wouldn't have doubled that." I say "Well, it's the right move", and the player says "an 18?, No. Especially not against a three." We're not fighting, just a polite disagreement. The supervisor comes over and asks, "Is there a problem?" We say "No big deal, just a little disagreement on how to play a hand." The supervisor asks "What was the hand." So we tell him "Soft 18 vs. dealer's 3." He turns his name tag over, and on the back is a basic strategy card! The supervisor looks at the card and says "You double down." The other player apologizes to me. I was just completely surprised to see a supervisor with a strategy card.

 

[GeorgeD]

I saw that happen once in my life and it actually took me by surprise. It wasn't in Vegas. It was at one of my local casinos. I'm playing third base. I'm dealt a soft 18 vs. the dealers 3, so I double down of course. The dealer ends up busting. A player tells me "Good job, but I wouldn't have doubled that." I say "Well, it's the right move", and the player says "an 18?, No. Especially not against a three." We're not fighting, just a polite disagreement. The supervisor comes over and asks, "Is there a problem?" We say "No big deal, just a little disagreement on how to play a hand." The supervisor asks "What was the hand." So we tell him "Soft 18 vs. dealer's 3." He turns his name tag over, and on the back is a basic strategy card! The supervisor looks at the card and says "You double down." The other player apologizes to me. I was just completely surprised to see a supervisor with a strategy card.

In Ontario, Fallsview in particular, I've heard several dealers give pretty good advice. Also have seen them call a pit boss over when unsure, and seen some bosses pull out a BS card. Maybe it's just those polite as hell Canadians or maybe because they're run by the government.


Best of all was when a ploppy started on me for doubling an a-3 and then hitting a soft 18. I ignored her, but the dealer kept telling her I made the right move and it was my money anyway as her rant continued. Finally the Ploppy not only went away, she went away MAD AS HELL.

 

[EasyRhino]

I've also seen a couple of dealers who know BS cold, and even have the little reversable nametag, which is pretty sweet.

I also had a pit supervisor hand me a basic strategy card when he saw that mine was starting to fall apart.

 

[SilentBob420BMFJ]

You asked about how hard it would be for the casinos to instruct their casinos that basic strategy is correct and also how losing gets the dealer tips.
On the second point, using my example of the guru dealer. The tips come big time when the player is winning because every move and every bet has been dictated to him by that dealer. The advice sometimes is good, other times is not, but a good run means big big tips and while eventually the guy will lose it all back, those tips remain in the toke box.

The hard question: Dealers are not paid by the casino to give proper basic strategy advice and in fact neither are the floormen, pit bosses or anyone else working there. Those dealers and pits who do give good advice are performing customer service beyond what their boss pays them for and should be commended here as we demonize those who give bad advice. In more than 30 years of playing in Vegas I know several pits who give decent advice but I only know one who carries a good basic strategy card in his pocket and will show it to the player who asks him for advice. Now every casino could give every pit one of these cards and require him to do the same thing. It would be a great service and they are sort of in a service business, but not this kind of service. You want service? They will give you your drink for free and bring it to you. But if you wish the kind of service that decreases their bottom line, forget it.
Also, it would take time to train every dealer in basic strategy and why should they. Hard world as it is, it is up to the player to learn the strategy and if he is lazy he can spend a couple of dollars and get a card in the gift shop.

Besides all of this, there is the economics of blackjack. If they convinced every player to play perfect basic strategy they definately would not make enough money to keep their blackjack tables going without major changes in the rules. The casino bases their expenses, comps and everything involved with the profit on blackjack, on having a 2% edge on a game that only has a .5% edge over basic strategy. They can not afford to help you become a better player and it is in their interest to treat that ploppy or novice who plays at a loss of larger than 2% very happy but very ignorant.

ihate17

actually, the casino in the wisconsin dells teaches you how to play and hands out strategy cards.. they have a blackjack table off to the side, and about 6 hours a day there is somebody there who teaches you how to play, and tells you basic strategy is correct, the card is correct, and dont question it no matter how odd it seems.. the house edge is .64% tho

I saw that happen once in my life and it actually took me by surprise. It wasn't in Vegas. It was at one of my local casinos. I'm playing third base. I'm dealt a soft 18 vs. the dealers 3, so I double down of course. The dealer ends up busting. A player tells me "Good job, but I wouldn't have doubled that." I say "Well, it's the right move", and the player says "an 18?, No. Especially not against a three." We're not fighting, just a polite disagreement. The supervisor comes over and asks, "Is there a problem?" We say "No big deal, just a little disagreement on how to play a hand." The supervisor asks "What was the hand." So we tell him "Soft 18 vs. dealer's 3." He turns his name tag over, and on the back is a basic strategy card! The supervisor looks at the card and says "You double down." The other player apologizes to me. I was just completely surprised to see a supervisor with a strategy card.

that would make me so happy.. the problem is, there is a good chance that player will disregard that as bunk

 

[ihate17]

Proper basic strategy

Bob

It is commendable that this casino in Wisc teaches proper BS, but that game they deal is far from commendable.

I listened in once at a Vegas casino where a dealer was teaching people how to play at one of those lessons tables.
They help you with procedure, signal for hit, stand etc.
But in a short lesson, with people always asking questions, if they wanted to teach it properly they could not. They advised always taking even money, not hitting any stiff vs stiff, did not mention soft doubles or surrender which was available.
What they did do was give everyone a BS card and only had them use the front, so the strategy for doubling after splitting (on back) was ignored.

ihate17

 

[SilentBob420BMFJ]

Bob

It is commendable that this casino in Wisc teaches proper BS, but that game they deal is far from commendable.

I listened in once at a Vegas casino where a dealer was teaching people how to play at one of those lessons tables.
They help you with procedure, signal for hit, stand etc.
But in a short lesson, with people always asking questions, if they wanted to teach it properly they could not. They advised always taking even money, not hitting any stiff vs stiff, did not mention soft doubles or surrender which was available.
What they did do was give everyone a BS card and only had them use the front, so the strategy for doubling after splitting (on back) was ignored.

ihate17

i know a h17 shoe game is bad, but i have heard a lot on this forum about how 6/8 deck is h17 by them, so i dont think this is uncommon.. also, this casino i speak of tells them everything there is to know about basic strategy, by telling them how to read the card, he has preset hands set in the deck, and they include soft, split, double, and hard, several of each.. also, if the casino tells them to listen to the bs card, it is correct, then im sure they will, its not like they will say "he didnt teach us about splits, so lets never split".. its still amazing how many people say "you really think the casino would help you out? that card is probably a scam".. what casino would have the balls to do that

 

[SecurityRisk]

that would make me so happy.. the problem is, there is a good chance that player will disregard that as bunk

Yeah, I know. How many time have you heard players say "The casinos wrote the book."

 

[SilentBob420BMFJ]

Yeah, I know. How many time have you heard players say "The casinos wrote the book."

it pisses me off, because there is no bible of blackjack! hell, even the bible has different versions.. they act like its "THE book".. lets see, i could get enuf blackjack books to surround a ploppy, and then he can tell me over the huge pile of books that they are all nonsense even tho they all agree on the same exact basic strategy! its quite simple, because if it was only a money making scheme, would you copy somebody else? would you repeat what has been said? hell no, you would say "new and improved! revealed for the first time!".. i.. dont.. get.. ploppies!! maybe if i had some friends who went to the casino with me i could either have some fun with the ploppies or completely ignore them, but as is, i cant ignore more than 60% of what they say

 

[Reno Dude]

it pisses me off, because there is no bible of blackjack! hell, even the bible has different versions.. they act like its "THE book".. lets see, i could get enuf blackjack books to surround a ploppy, and then he can tell me over the huge pile of books that they are all nonsense even tho they all agree on the same exact basic strategy! its quite simple, because if it was only a money making scheme, would you copy somebody else? would you repeat what has been said? hell no, you would say "new and improved! revealed for the first time!".. i.. dont.. get.. ploppies!! maybe if i had some friends who went to the casino with me i could either have some fun with the ploppies or completely ignore them, but as is, i cant ignore more than 60% of what they say

If you want to have some fun, the next time you are at a table and somebody at the table says " the book says to....... " ask them " which book? " You will see a question mark hover over thier head like a halo.

 

[Frankie]

actually, the casino in the wisconsin dells teaches you how to play and hands out strategy cards.. they have a blackjack table off to the side, and about 6 hours a day there is somebody there who teaches you how to play, and tells you basic strategy is correct, the card is correct, and dont question it no matter how odd it seems.. the house edge is .64% tho



that would make me so happy.. the problem is, there is a good chance that player will disregard that as bunk

House edge is much higher that .64% at Ho Chunk. Those guys are known cheaters. Of course they teach you basic strategy. LMAO. They can crush players with the rigged decks they have been busted many times for using.

FWIW I am undefeated (2-0) at that casino, but haven't been there in years.

 

[ihate17]

The trouble with the book (s)

it pisses me off, because there is no bible of blackjack! hell, even the bible has different versions.. they act like its "THE book".. lets see, i could get enuf blackjack books to surround a ploppy, and then he can tell me over the huge pile of books that they are all nonsense even tho they all agree on the same exact basic strategy! its quite simple, because if it was only a money making scheme, would you copy somebody else? would you repeat what has been said? hell no, you would say "new and improved! revealed for the first time!".. i.. dont.. get.. ploppies!! maybe if i had some friends who went to the casino with me i could either have some fun with the ploppies or completely ignore them, but as is, i cant ignore more than 60% of what they say

The last time I walked into a Borders and checked the different books that gave strategy for blackjack I was amazed that there were more books with severe basic strategy errors than there were books with correct basic strategy. Now on a legitimate blackjack site that sells books, the BS will be right or the website rejects the book, but when you are talking about a general bookstore, you can not expect good advice. So you may need to always ask, which book? There obviously is not just "The" book.

ihate17

 

[SilentBob420BMFJ]

House edge is much higher that .64% at Ho Chunk. Those guys are known cheaters. Of course they teach you basic strategy. LMAO. They can crush players with the rigged decks they have been busted many times for using.

FWIW I am undefeated (2-0) at that casino, but haven't been there in years.

then they must have changed the rules, because i was there 14 months ago, and the rules were 6D, H17, DA2, DAS, RS4, which = -.64%

The last time I walked into a Borders and checked the different books that gave strategy for blackjack I was amazed that there were more books with severe basic strategy errors than there were books with correct basic strategy. Now on a legitimate blackjack site that sells books, the BS will be right or the website rejects the book, but when you are talking about a general bookstore, you can not expect good advice. So you may need to always ask, which book? There obviously is not just "The" book.

ihate17

 

[SilentBob420BMFJ]

House edge is much higher that .64% at Ho Chunk. Those guys are known cheaters. Of course they teach you basic strategy. LMAO. They can crush players with the rigged decks they have been busted many times for using.

FWIW I am undefeated (2-0) at that casino, but haven't been there in years.

then they must have changed the rules, because i was there 14 months ago, and the rules were 6D, H17, DA2, DAS, RS4, which = -.64%

EDIT: wait what?! rigged decks? i HIGHLY doubt that

The last time I walked into a Borders and checked the different books that gave strategy for blackjack I was amazed that there were more books with severe basic strategy errors than there were books with correct basic strategy. Now on a legitimate blackjack site that sells books, the BS will be right or the website rejects the book, but when you are talking about a general bookstore, you can not expect good advice. So you may need to always ask, which book? There obviously is not just "The" book.

ihate17

i actually have found the opposite in my experience (altho i havent read tons of books), that being that most bj books are exactly the same in terms of the basics.. i cannot say the same for video poker books tho