Define pro?

[blackchipjim]

By definition

Well to rebut a few of the points some of posters have made some of them came from humble beginings. They stated in a few books that they scraped together brs to start again after devastating losses. The rusty buick was where they had to live because of it. I think there are others here that do other things for a living and play pro bj regardless of where they derive the main source from. If you are retired and play full time or whenever are you a professional retiree then just a degenerate gambler,No. I think that alot of you are considered pros you just don't know that you are. With all the math, sims, and theories that get thrown around here not to mention some of the notables with proven track records you must be kidding if your not pros.

 

[UK-21]

My two bob's worth . . . .

Having read the posts, I think there are different things being discussed.

"Professional" as in occupation - simple, somone who does it for their primary source of income. Nothing to add really, for this definition you either are or you aren't.

"Professional" as in attitude of mind - much broader, and will cover second income, part-time and recreational players. It's possible to take a professional approach to something that you only do occassionally, or do something regularly, or even for a living, and not be "professional" about it.

Many years ago, the British Army came up with a recruiting line of "join the professionals" (or words to that effect). Many people found this amusing. Indeed a great many regulars I came into contact with certainly could never have been described as professional in the way they conducted themselves, and frankly were a waste of rations. When you start describing yourself as one of the "professionals" (as against being a "pro") it's time to take a long look inwards.

And being a "pro" doesn't necessarily mean you are "professional" in going about what you do. I've learned to my cost on more than one occasion, just because someone is a member of a profession (law comes to mind), it doesn't necessarily mean they are a professional or are professional. Does that make sense?

 

[ExhibitCAA]

I agree that there are apparently two schools: (1) Those who want to define a "professional" as a person whose livelihood comes from gambling; (2) Those who want to define a "professional" as a person who approaches the game seriously, extremely skillfully, and profitably.

To me, I tend to go with school of thought (1), but this is not because I care about the theoretical semantic differences or philosophy. The reason is that in my opinion, there is no player in category (2) who is not already in category (1). That is, the players who play casino games as a profitable hobby (i.e., they have a real day job), ARE NOT at the skill level of pros, nor do they approach the game with anything like the attitude, mentality, and lifestyle of pros. Though these players think that they are really serious about their APing, their lifestyle, experience, and skill at the casino games doesn't even put them close to the people I consider pros.

Let me make an analogy. Some would say that a professional basketball player is one who makes a living playing the game, such as an NBA player. Others would say that a professional basketball player is a guy who plays basketball as well as an NBA player, even if he plays only at the local park on weekends for fun (or minor prop bets), while practicing his livelihood as a doctor during the week. My argument is that THERE IS NO ONE playing at the local park on weekends who is as good as an NBA player. If there is anyone, there are SO FEW of these people (I can't find any) that this debate isn't really relevant. Other than those who earn a livelihood playing casino games (or who did for a significant period of time), I would say there is probably no one on this board that I would label as a pro.

As alluded to by other posters, there is a big difference in approach for a real casino pro, who does not have the safety net of a day job. If he doesn't go out to play, he doesn't eat. He plays every game knowing that if he gets heat/barred, he is effectively losing his job. This alone constitute a MAJOR difference in how pros can attack certain games vs. weekend warriors. Exposure management is a very important aspect of a pro's career approach.

Furthermore, pros have extreme knowledge of gaming venues around the country/world that weekend warriors don't. The weekend warrior is happy to play at his local joint and pick up a few bucks, which can be seen as a supplemental income. The pro, in contrast, can't play just one local joint. He needs to play many places, because he's trying to produce his MAIN income, not a supplemental income. Now he has to travel. Now he scouts many venues. He gains more experience, sees more games. He runs into a game and has to do analysis on it.

Weekend warriors, even the serious "professionalist" ones, tend to ask, "How do I know if I'm in Griffin?" Pros usually have access to Griffin and surveillance sources. The pros I know have all seen their own flyers.

Pros have heat with casino boss, AND GAMING AGENTS. I've had incidents involving gaming agents in four diff states that I can think of off the top of my head. Pros usually have legal issues and lawsuits against casinos at some point.

Pros, because they are working casinos all the time, reach a level that weekend warriors don't even imagine, but think they do. (Read book "Outliers" regarding the 10,000-hour rule.)

I could go on, but my basic point is, this is a semantic debate about labeling. By my view, regardless of which definition of "pro" you use, I would end up labeling the same players as "pros" under either definition, because I haven't seen any player who has a day job who is in fact at the level of the casino pros I know, measured in terms of skill, experience, seriousness, effort, knowledge, or earnings.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

I agree that there are apparently two schools: (1) Those who want to define a "professional" as a person whose livelihood comes from gambling; (2) Those who want to define a "professional" as a person who approaches the game seriously, extremely skillfully, and profitably.

To me, I tend to go with school of thought (1), but this is not because I care about the theoretical semantic differences or philosophy. The reason is that in my opinion, there is no player in category (2) who is not already in category (1). That is, the players who play casino games as a profitable hobby (i.e., they have a real day job), ARE NOT at the skill level of pros, nor do they approach the game with anything like the attitude, mentality, and lifestyle of pros. Though these players think that they are really serious about their APing, their lifestyle, experience, and skill at the casino games doesn't even put them close to the people I consider pros.

Let me make an analogy. Some would say that a professional basketball player is one who makes a living playing the game, such as an NBA player. Others would say that a professional basketball player is a guy who plays basketball as well as an NBA player, even if he plays only at the local park on weekends for fun (or minor prop bets), while practicing his livelihood as a doctor during the week. My argument is that THERE IS NO ONE playing at the local park on weekends who is as good as an NBA player. If there is anyone, there are SO FEW of these people (I can't find any) that this debate isn't really relevant. Other than those who earn a livelihood playing casino games (or who did for a significant period of time), I would say there is probably no one on this board that I would label as a pro.

As alluded to by other posters, there is a big difference in approach for a real casino pro, who does not have the safety net of a day job. If he doesn't go out to play, he doesn't eat. He plays every game knowing that if he gets heat/barred, he is effectively losing his job. This alone constitute a MAJOR difference in how pros can attack certain games vs. weekend warriors. Exposure management is a very important aspect of a pro's career approach.

Furthermore, pros have extreme knowledge of gaming venues around the country/world that weekend warriors don't. The weekend warrior is happy to play at his local joint and pick up a few bucks, which can be seen as a supplemental income. The pro, in contrast, can't play just one local joint. He needs to play many places, because he's trying to produce his MAIN income, not a supplemental income. Now he has to travel. Now he scouts many venues. He gains more experience, sees more games. He runs into a game and has to do analysis on it.

Weekend warriors, even the serious "professionalist" ones, tend to ask, "How do I know if I'm in Griffin?" Pros usually have access to Griffin and surveillance sources. The pros I know have all seen their own flyers.

Pros have heat with casino boss, AND GAMING AGENTS. I've had incidents involving gaming agents in four diff states that I can think of off the top of my head. Pros usually have legal issues and lawsuits against casinos at some point.

Pros, because they are working casinos all the time, reach a level that weekend warriors don't even imagine, but think they do. (Read book "Outliers" regarding the 10,000-hour rule.)

I could go on, but my basic point is, this is a semantic debate about labeling. By my view, regardless of which definition of "pro" you use, I would end up labeling the same players as "pros" under either definition, because I haven't seen any player who has a day job who is in fact at the level of the casino pros I know, measured in terms of skill, experience, seriousness, effort, knowledge, or earnings.

Excellent points. Being a weekender has its advantages in that I can do a few things a full-timer can't. One of those things is run out of money, in that a new BR is only a couple of paychecks away. A part-timer can play for a higher EV per hour than a full-timer, all other things being equal. One thing I can't do is spend a week in jail because I've pissed off a casino. Makes for a really tough phone call into work explaining why you're not there.

The comparison to the NBA player isn't the best because in relative terms it takes much more work to be a pro athlete, where there is no such thing as good enough, you have to be better than almost everyone else. AP is relatively easy compared to most skilled and educated professions. With all due respect to your peerless body of work, CAA is light reading compared to some of our old textbooks. While you're training from age 10 on to be a pro basketball player, there are those of us who have trained for something else and find AP to be something that enhances our lives as a part-time income. It can easily detract from your life as a full-time job. I like being an engineer and wouldn't want to give it up, but at the same time there's no reason a weekender shouldn't have and apply the same skills as a full-time pro when there is money at stake. I take it with utter seriousness, as even for a part-timer success or failure means the difference between an upper-middle class and lower-middle class lifestyle.

What you might be trying to tell us is a pro is an AP who lives a desperate, furtive existence and doesn't have a lot of options.

 

[Pro21]

What you might be trying to tell us is a pro is an AP who lives a desperate, furtive existence and doesn't have a lot of options.

:laugh: Well I never realized my life was desperate or furtive. Now I may be a lazy pro. I only play 6-10 days a month because that is the option I choose. To my thinking that allows me a lot of options.

 

[golfnut101]

defining a pro

My argument is that THERE IS NO ONE playing at the local park on weekends who is as good as an NBA player.

Wonderful to read your thoughts Exhibit as you clearly live what you say. But on a side note, having coached hoops at the college level, I must say there are lots of kids that are just as 'good', good being defined by most as having the physical abilities to keep up to a real pro. I have seen many. What seperates the real pro rfom the weekend warrior, is just as you say. Most cannot imagine what is involved to get to that level, and that the raw talent is just the tip of the iceberg. "How does this relate ?" some will ask. Correct me if I am wrong here Exhibit, but I would venture to guess there are many who have what it takes to be a successful AP by your definition. So few are willing to put in the time it takes to get to that level. I am constantly puzzled as to the emphasis placed on 'the math'..'conditions'...etc, on this site, but you read so little about the time and dedication one must put to practicing the skills needed to take advantage of such elements. It appears that many on this site overlook the boring, 'unromantic' idea of counting drills, techniques etc, night in-night out, that one must do behind closed doors. When I first stumbled on to counting, I was fortunate enough to have a Bojacks words hit home about 'practice, practice, practice', and I am nowhere near the level that you guys are at. I remember a young, anxious member pm'd me(no, not because I am by no means a "senior" member, haha, but because we use same count)and basically wanted to run before he could crawl. He brushed me off when I told him to practice a ton, and then a ton more, before you even think about setting foot in casino. He felt it was not important, and I heard from him no longer. Maybe he is a big time AP as we speak; I wish him nothing but success. But in closing, if there is anything I could give back, it would be to the young ones out there who are chomping at the bit looking for that 'magic wand' I would say to you...practice, practice, practice, and then more practice !

 

[ExhibitCAA]

As Pro21 says, pros have plenty of options. One of them being that we can work with other pros and have access to their scouting and expertise. A pro can camp out at a venue and spend a week waiting for conditions or digging out of a hole if he chooses, while the weekend warrior (WW) has to go back to his day job on Monday morning. The WW has an advantage in the certainty of a paycheck in two weeks that a pro may not have, but the point is that the pro and the WW do approach the games differently, because their circumstances are different, despite the fact that the WW takes the game seriously.

"AP is relatively easy compared to most skilled and educated professions. With all due respect to your peerless body of work, CAA is light reading compared to some of our old textbooks."

I never said being an AP or CAA is difficult. The skills required can be acquired by most people who are willing to put in the work required. The point is: though the weekend warrior may be CAPABLE of reaching the level of a working pro, the fact of the matter is that he has and will not, though he may think he has. This is not a slight on the WW's character; it is merely a reflection of the different career/path that the WW has chosen--i.e., the WW chose to get a life, haha!

"I like being an engineer and wouldn't want to give it up, but at the same time there's no reason a weekender shouldn't have and apply the same skills as a full-time pro when there is money at stake."

Yes, there IS a reason the WW shouldn't/won't have the same skills as a full-time pro--the WW will never come CLOSE to the work input that the pro has put in. Take holecarding. I put in a few more hours scouting and find a game the WW doesn't find. Then I play it, and thus get an additional 40 hours of spotting experience on that game before it's dead (for example). In that time, I learn something and run some numbers related to it. Now I am armed with an additional chart. And, I learned another thing to look for to make finding additional games easier. I find three more games, and get another 120 hours in. Then I deliver a hit for $100k and wind up in the backroom. I get interrogated by gaming agents, an experience the WW doesn't have. I see how the legal system works. Now I'm heated up locally, so I go to scout games in Mauritius. It goes on and on. The differential between the full-time, working pro and the WW widens.

Meanwhile, you've been enjoying your life as an engineer, with occasional weekend trips to your nearest gaming venue. I'm sure you take your weekend APing seriously, and have a good edge. WHEN YOU HAVE TIME, you probably read what new BJ books you can, and run some of your own numbers. BUT, while you were at your engineer job for 40-50 hours this past week, what do you think I was doing?

 

[blackjack avenger]

$100,000 Still the Measuring Stick?

I am just talking about counting:

No mention of $100,000 being won as a counter being the measuring stick of a pro?:joker::whip: A gambler could win this amount; however, as a general guideline perhaps not the worst because it can show skill and results over time.

"An AP is one who lives a desparate, furtive existence and does not have a lot of options." For some this is probably true.:joker::whip:

If one derives most or all of their income from AP over time then they are probably showing they have the skill level to be a pro.:joker::whip:

In this field a semi pro can equal or surpass the skill set of a pro.

For a pro or semi pro skill set is very important. However; I am going to say it Sage Frog, luck is an important factor. The variance is so high and is probably the number 1 reason for failure at this endeavor.

A pro who needs to derive most or all of his income from bj has expenses that eat into his bank probably every day while he is like a leaf in a hurricane with variance.

What if the pro is losing for a long time?
What if he is just breaking even for a long time?
What if he is only winning slightly?

The long run numbers for being up a $1 are interesting. What are the long run numbers for being up enough to cover food and shelter for one month?
I am confident in saying they are more than one can play in a month!:joker::whip: It seems to me the word desparate comes to mind!:joker::whip:

 

[bjcount]

BUT, while you were at your engineer job for 40-50 hours this past week, what do you think I was doing?

Can I take a stab at this one?

Sitting on the beach with you laptop and a Mi Tai, looking at all your bank accounts wondering where to put all your money in these uncertain times?

No? I was wrong? Darn it.

But all kidding aside, after reading all the posts in this thread,

I would consider the "Pro" a person who is in the same position as the small business owner. Not the CEO of a public corporation, not the lawyer working for a large firm, not the Cardiologist working with a dozen other partners where the stress of maintaining a "lifestyle" is shared among a group.

I would put the "Pro" in the field of Gambling/gaming/etc.. in the same category as I was 10 years ago.

Particularly, a small business owner.

You have to run and find new places to work, in construction you have to run to find new jobs to bid on, they just don't fall in your lap. If you piss off a customer, it's almost a guarantee you won't be getting anymore work from them. No different then getting 86'd.

Besides yourself, there are families, your loyal employees, that rely on you to provide for. The salaries, benefits, medical, etc. etc.

Then you have your own family to provide for food, shelter, healthcare, schooling etc... etc... if you don't find the work, you'll go hungry... and there's no free comps to fill your belly.

As the small business owner you work 7 days a week, if not in the field, then taking care of business, the bills, invoicing, TAXES, , proposals, etc... all those things the person working for someone else has no cares or worries about... their only worry is that the paycheck is there at the end of the week.

The owner, he sometimes has to worry that there's enough left for his family after everything else has been taking care of.

Vacations? What are those?

Of course over a period of years life should get easier for both the small business owner and the Pro player, but thats only if they played their cards right... no pun intended.


After many years of being that small business owner and it was a profitable one, I walked away from it, surely I miss it. Now I work for a medium sized business owner, feel the weight of those similar issues, but don't feel the stress that weight creates. Of course all work places have a level of stress, but nowhere near the level the owner bears.

Being a weekend warrior has no stress (unless your betting with the farm, house, car, plastic, etc.. you get the point). You win, you lose, those are the risks you knowingly walked into. Ok .. so you go without coffee in the morning for a week on your way into work, or you went a little overboard and can't party next weekend. Big freakin deal.

If the pro loses, as does the small business owner, he's got nothing left but to pan for gold.

It's not how much they bet, how big a spread, what games they play, the size of they're BR, how many hours they play, or even how much they travel.

It wasn't a bunch of schooling and a long "hypocritical" oath.. and POOF... your a pro.. now go hang up that shingle.

A "Pro" has the ability to balance all the elements and rise above others.


BJC

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Hunters and Farmers

...Meanwhile, you've been enjoying your life as an engineer, with occasional weekend trips to your nearest gaming venue. I'm sure you take your weekend APing seriously, and have a good edge. WHEN YOU HAVE TIME, you probably read what new BJ books you can, and run some of your own numbers. BUT, while you were at your engineer job for 40-50 hours this past week, what do you think I was doing?

Reflecting on this and what CAA says, I think I've got the best analogy to describe the difference- the weekend warriors are like hunter-gatherers and the full-time pros are like an agrarian society.

Hunter-gatherer: goes out into the forest alone or with a small group of peers. He either makes his own weapons or trades for them with other hunters. He may have deadly skills with his weapons, or might be a novice or weakling who doesn't do as well. But no matter how good he is, he is limited by what the forest has to offer him that day. He might spot a wounded bison and live well for a long time. He might find rabbits or squirrels instead. Or he might have to settle for some berries picked off a bush. If he encounters a competing hunter out there he can either fight for his turf or just go hunt somewhere else, doesn't matter too much. But he can be as aggressive as he dares- the worst that can happen if he is too aggressive is he scares off his prey and has to go track down more. When the hunter-gatherers come back to the village with their quarry they all do something else, they're hut builders, stone cutters or spear makers, but they have high status because they are also hunters.

A weekend warrior plays this same way: goes out to a venue with his "weapons" without being sure of what he is going to find, could be a flasher, a promo, a deeply dealt game. If he's a good warrior, whatever it is he's going to beat it and get the money, but there's always the possibility there's going to be not much there and he's going to have a lousy weekend. If he hits it too hard and gets backed off, he's going to howl and growl and go to another store or another shift. When he comes home, he does something else and his AP money enhances his status in his society.

Agrarians: he lives on his land and spends most of his time not picking his crops or slaughtering his animals but preparing and cultivating them. And he has plenty of time to dig irrigation canals and build pigpens because with all the food he can produce on his farm, he doesn't need to work anywhere else and can trade for any supplies he needs. He can do most of his tasks alone if necessary but works most efficiently in teamwork with his farmhands. Everything he does has to be planned ahead, and he has to be prepared to forgo a delicious looking opportunity to protect one he knows will come up later. He can't farm his land too aggressively or he will wear it out or kill off his animals and these are things that will be difficult or impossible to replace. He does have to fend off predators, corrupt officials and other unethical farmers who would run him off his land after he has developed it. In most societies his status isn't that high, his job being considered "dirty," but he has good bonds with other farmers and a high standard of living.

Full-time pro: spends most of his working time staking out games or preparing a game plan. Has to scout and cultivate his opportunities, rather than just finding the best game where he happens to be and taking advantage of it. Usually has to work with others if he wants to get anything done. Can't afford to burn out games or burn through his bankroll as he doesn't have another paycheck to replace it. Sometimes has to deal with other AP's who are coming around and screwing up his game. And can make a lot more money than a weekender because he can devote the time to scouting and travel that the weekender, by definition, can't.